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| OldSub4 |
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Anbessa First of all, many thanks for starting this thread. I was out of the sport for many years but have really been drawn in by the discussion and the great input from around the world. Secondly, my thoughts on your training.. --I think your strength emphasis is quite good. You are very strong aerobically and your LT threshhold is excellent. --your aerobic power workouts need to be sped up. If you can run 3 miles in 15:48 on the track in a regular session, you should be able to tackle 4*1200 in 3:39, 3:33, 3:27, 3:21 and begin to work it down. 1:44 guys will do this workout in 3:24, 3:18, 3:12, 3:06 in December. I would not have believed this until I saw it but it was the key to getting to the next level. --While you are appropriately featuring strength work, you cannot let your anaerobic system or CP systems atrophy. You need to pull back on one session and have a maintainence session at least 1 per week where you are doing something that is faster -- 200s or 300s averaging around race pace...only 3-6 of them though. We would do them as a second workout after the tempo. Good luck, you are definately getting fit! |
| Anbessa |
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Oldsub4, Thanks for the kind words! - - This thread in it's own right could be published as a mid-distance guide! I appreciate the review of my 2 weeks. As you've stated, my aerobic fitness and LT have lowered to the point where easy runs for me are at around 6:25ish and im able to do long runs at an average of 6:20... as compared to times during XC! Unfortunately, I've had to take the past 2 days off with tonsillitis like symptoms! However, Maybe 2 days will be the recovery I needed to recover from this strenuous schedule -- It's nothing like i've done before -- ALOT of high end aerobic running, hopefully it helps my 800/1500 times come this indoor! Thanks again to all who have contributed! Have a safe and happy new years!! |
| the right answer |
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I don't have time to read this entire thread but I have looked at lots of Old Sub 4's posts and they are very insightful. However, I'm curious about Anbessa. Are you just curious about sub 150 training or are you trying to run sub 1:50 |
| Anbessa |
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'The right answer' - In reponse to your question, if you read the 1st page, and my initial post that starts the thread, you will have your answer - However, To answer your question, A little bit of both, because I believe with the right formula I could very easily break 1:50 -- I have the speed (49.x speed) = Enough to carry a few 54-55 laps... but I'm missing a part of the equation! That's where my questioning comes in and I have found my answers! Not to mention, I just love conversing over the sport as I feel I'm knowledgeable enough to hold down an intellectual conversation and contribute to this thread! I am by no means a distinguished coach/speaker, but then again everyone brings something different to the table! Anbessa |
| Tinman |
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[quote]Rising halfer wrote: "...what would you predict my indoor 800 to be off of a 1:21 600 tt indoor?" ========================== A 600m time of 1:21 flat typically equals an 800m time of 1:52.5, I have observed. (800m velocity is 96% of 600m velocity, typically.) Hope that helps! Tinman |
| the right answer |
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Wouldn't this depend largely on the type of runner. Wouldn't a 400/800 type run a much faster 600 than the 800/1500 type. Also, I was really impressed Symmonds ran a 1:14 600 time trial. I was more impressed with that than his 1:44 at the trials. |
| symmmondss!! nick symmonds! |
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Symmonds probably has a 1:43 in him. His last 200 was flying even though he was in lane 2 on the curve and had to go round people. When he made his move at ~160 to go it looked like the rest of the field was standing still. I think he ran 1:44.0x so he is definitely close. |
| Some Canadian |
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Well if we use Tinman's 96% formula then Symmonds' 1:14 600m TT equates to a 1:42.7 800m... very impressive indeed! ...that being said, just saying "96%" seems pretty loosey-goosey... although I really hope Symmonds does indeed break into that sub-1:43 territory someday soon! |
| Rising halfer |
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Thank you for the response, I have ran 1:52 last season in outdoor as a senior. I am hoping that I can go 1:50 this season. I don't really consider myself a 400/800 guy as I haven't broke 49 in the 400 yet. I'll keep working on my aerobic, that seems to be the missing piece. In hs my mileage was low, never more than 25. |
| Tinman |
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Thje 96% rule of thumb is just that - a rule of thumb. It works fairly well for most runners. I didn't say it was a law! I've watched Symmonds run races a few times, and in most cases he doesn't run a steady pace, and he also does some ziz-zagging through crowds - even on the last curve. I watched his Pre race (in person) the last two times and I notice he needs to be in better position at 500m so he doesn't have to surge so darn hard down the backstretch. The race that he ran his fastest 800m time was when he accelerated about 580 meters into the race and made moves around the final curve (running extra distance). Had he been in a better position with 200m to go (before the curve), I believe would have run close to a second faster. His condition was outstanding and his rhythm was excellent. I am also very impressed with his mental toughness. Nobody wants to win more than that guy! |
| Youth |
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can someone share best recovery tips from serious overtraining? THank you. |
| HSC |
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Back in September UCONN mentioned the above in regard to an article by Kevin Pendergast on 800 training. I do not recall who posted the article. Is Kevin a coach and/or runner? Has anyone tried to use his recommendations? Am interested in any comments concerning the article. |
| me o my |
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Old Sub 4, do you think there is a danger of running too quickly on your average runs during base phase? I was reading El G training and supposedly during base he clocked his daily runs at 2:50-3:10 per K or his "best possible effort." Additionally, he usually only ran only 45 min. I was considering running shorter but quicker this year during my base but I am worried that by doing this I will be skipping base. Lydiard says that we really cant improve our anaerobic energy from year to year. Im worried that be doing this I will not be fully stressing my aerobic system at the time of the year when I am supposed to be doing so and essentially be jumping straight into precompetition phase. What do you guys think? |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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Seb Coe didn't count it as training if it was over 6 minutes/mile. Even slow running improves the aerobic system but 8+ minutes per mile is so different mechanically from sub 60s/lap pace you have to wonder if it is doing much for you besides helping recovery. But still, it is better to go 5% too slow then 1% too fast. Err on the side of caution. |
| wellnow |
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A huge amount of research has shown that we don't acually improve our aerobic capacity year after year. It's the biggest training myth around. In fact, it's very easy to maximize your aerobic capacity. Thereafter, improvements come from an increase in skill. So improving our running skills should be our first priority. Regarding Lydiardism, if you remove the parts of his methodology that are untrue (from a physiological perspective) and do the rest............. As Nobby Hashizume, the founder of the Lydiard foundation has said, several of Lydiard's ideas were contradictory. The problem with past and current training ideas is that most of them are based on false notions of aerobic conditioning, so coaches and athletes over emphasize so called "aerobic training" and under emphasize the skill aspects of speed endurance. I believe that one of the biggest reasons why African runners seem to be more talented is that the skill of running comes naturally in the right environment, and is undermined in America and Europe, where kids are encouraged to train too much against the stopwatch before they have developed their natural talent for speed endurance (which almost all of us have) I would like to explain and discuss this further, but without the usual claims and counter claims of ignorance etc. |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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Sometimes watching a race of Kenyans/Ethiopians vs Europeans/Americans I am stuck by the thought that (comparing some runners, not all) they both appear to be working as hard as each other. The Kenyans and Ethiopians just are more skillful runners-more coordinated, more spring in their legs, less energy wasted at footstrike etc. Ryan Hall's 1/2 marathon record is the closest I've seen an American dude come to that level of skill, and Mottram has it as well-look at his 12:55 vs Geb, he was incredibly smooth in that race. Relaxation has a lot to do with it I think, and of course confidence to go with the pace. Also body fat % is important-and that is one thing that can keep on being lowered bit by bit over the years, and it is one thing that Kenyans and Ethiopians don'thave much of. An athlete can't expect to be successful off of Chinese food and entenmann's. Of course, then there are guys like Bekele and Haile who look like they are sprinting the whole way for a damn 10000. |
| foomiler |
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Wellnow, I agree that running as a skill is much less emphasised generally, even though many distance athletes do drills nowadays. Drills in and of their own right do not teach correct mechanics (in my mind that is). Drills need to be combined with a mental appropriation and perception of what proper and efficient movement should LOOK and FEEL like when it is actually executed. My experience is that many runners have become so skilled at performing drills, but still do not run properly, just as there are those who are experts at doing great interval sessions, but can't put it together in a race. There seems to be more difficulty in getting runners to acquire that intuitive sense of what running as a movement truly requires (myself included). This seems more prevalent in developed countries than in third world nations. Drills seem to have become so much an offspring of technologisation rather than as a means to regain our innate sense of what our body can and should be doing when we run. That inner knowing of how to use our bodies seems to be more apparent in the Kenyans & Ethiopians, for example, than it is for westerners and the people from the more affluent Asian countries. So many of our kids grow up running around in huge chunky footwear in a very much "concretised" environment, that it is a challenge to get them to CATCH an idea of how to run, rather than just try to mentally cram it into their heads. To worsen things, there are so many schools of thought as to what constitutes 'correct' running form that people don't know what to believe. On this thread alone we have already had so many posts on the issue but nothing is truly conclusive. Having written all this I am by no means against drills. Even the great African runners do drills regularly, the very same drills that western runners also perform regularly. Yet when it comes to actual execution during a race, the running mechanics between the two could not be more different (in my mind at least). For me, there is a freedom of movement that accompanies African running that you just will not find in other countries. Most Kenyan runners do not look super pretty when they run, some of then even look imbalanced and tensed, but they give a sense of liberty and one-ness with their bodies compared to other athletes. When interviewed by Runner's World regarding the POse method of running, Paul Tergat actually replied tha "form is God given", that when we attempt to systemise something as natural as running we actually kill it. Even though on one level I agree, I suspect we cannot apply this to runners across the globe because the modern reality is that affluent living has somewhat affected our physical coordination. The "curse" of poverty in Kenya has allowed them to retain much more of how they can and should use their bodies just as the "blessing" of prosperity has diminished that ability in us. We are therefore not as "fortunate" as Tergat to be able to say that "form is God given". That's why people who say that just run more miles and your body will develop its own efficiency need to reconsider that notion. The reality is that many runners breakdown even on modest mileage, so how can they advance to higher volumes that would supposedly teach them good mechanics? So, we resolve that issue by introducing drills and other forms of skill & coordination training. But these modalities of training can only work if we are truly certain that we possess the optimal grasp of what "correct" running form should look and feel like, or else we shall just become excellent "drill doers" and not excellent distance runners. Timothy Noakes has written in his book Lore of Running: "Thus, perhaps the message of the Kenyans is that the best runners will come, in future, from groups of runners who train together, probably at altitude, and who come from those populations able to produce large numbers of truly exceptional athletes in an environment conducive to running. In Kenya this includes a cool climate at altitude; dirt roads over hilly, often beautiful and unspoiled countryside; and a level of material poverty that makes this physically demanding lifestyle desirable but is not severe enough to cause want in the basic staples of life, including adequate housing, food, and sanitation." (from the chapter "Learning from the Experts", p. 447) I may not fully agree with everthing Noakes has written on the issue, but he does have some strong points. My question is, how can we acquire the intuitive as well as the technical aspects of the sport in the given environment that we live in? |
| the right answer |
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Old Sub 4 are doubles really necessary? I'm a collge senior and this is the first year I haven't done doubles and I'm running better than ever. I'm a 1:50 guy and my coach thinks I'm strong enough to make the mile my main squeeze (my best is 4:11) even though I'm running less mileage this year (i dropped from 70-60 since I'm not running doubles) What are your thoughts? |
| hill city |
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Has anyone used repetition with change of pace in the middle with any success? One of the final specific endurance sessions of the season I was looking at was 3x800m (this is the final workout at the end of the weekly "specific enduance" work for my MD guys). I was thinking something like 2:20-2:15-2:10, but then I got to thinking that you could really work on "race things" inside of the repetitions. ...Something like 200 at 800 "start pace", immediately into 200 meters at threshold pace, immediately into a 200 at mile pace to practice picking up the stride rate at 400 meters, then 80 meters easy, finishing with a 120 meter kick). Is this flat out lame, or is there value in these types of workouts? |
| another canuck |
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There is definitely some value in such workouts. Some variations have been mentioned in this thread, as it does mirror a typical race-fast start, slower middle, two kicks etc.But as always, fit it to your guys. If your no.1 runner is a sit and kick runner, then perhaps he needs emphasis on running the entire race faster.Conversely, there are always guys who can't seem to accelerate off slow pace, so change of pace work should help. |
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