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| gots to drop some twosies |
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i think you are referring to the book "train easy wind hard" which is the real secret to everything. i love how you are considering elite times to be 1:41 to 1:46, as though all elite times are run in that range. 1:41 has been run by one guy. might as well say all 800 timmy's between 1:27 and 1:47 |
| Former 800 guy |
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Excellent contribution. Oh wait, nevermind. You're just a jackass. |
| gots to drop some twosies |
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i'm sorry. you're right. that was stupid and not nice. |
| i fact check while i run |
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actually 3 guys have run 1:41. Coe, Cruz, Kipketer. |
| Anbessa |
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Mmm, usually this is where the argumenting and bashing begins about who's right, who's wrong. So for "argument's sake" Im just going to say, everything I post is my opinion, and Im entitled that, just as you are. Though I might feel my contribution is greater then yours, your still giving my your opinion. Fair enough. Moving on, So high weight less reps is the general consensus. I read an article somewhere that stated "Train like a distance runner, lift like a sprinter". Im not sure who said it though, but it was definitely an 800m runner who was capable above the distance, but could squat/bench rediculous amounts of weight. I want to say Aiouta but I could be wrong. |
| i think it was |
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I think it was Rich Kenah who said that during the base you train like a marathoner but lift like a sprinter. A bit of an exaggeration, but the right idea. |
| 800/1500 |
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how do u know when its time to move up?? im 20 years old and i have run 1:53 in the 800 and 4:16 in the mile but i can only run mid/high 51's in the 400. i have reasonably good endurance and can run low 26's in xc. should i focus on more raw speed type stuff or stay at around 70 mpw and run the 1500/mile? |
| Bislett |
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OldSub4: I like your posts here. I have a question for you: how did you train the last few days before a big race? Just easy running and some strides or som harder stuff? Our Norwegian hero, Vebjørn Rodal often did 2x400@ 53-51 the day before a race. |
| Anthony Colotti |
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Ok I'll chirp in. Alot of the stuff on here is excellent, but I feel like I shold elaborate on resistance work: Only Upper Body Strengthening: What muscles are primarily used in running? The legs. So in order to strengthen the muscles used in running we must primarily strengthen the legs and improve posture. Olympic Lifts: Specific for one thing, Olympic Lifting. One needs a huge amount of general preparation to perform them correctly, and the joint actions in practice are not what are seen in running, particularly in the upper body. Most athletes are so hamstring dominant and are coached to “stomp” that they do not get full triple extension. But of course when running the legs are the primary muscles being used, so doing something that puts emphasis on the entire body is very draining on the CNS and for no reason. Plyos and jump squats/jump split lunges work much better. The Kenyans: If you couldn’t afford to feed yourself, would you build a multi-million dollar training facility? Just curious. So in order to implement a resistance training program for distance runners we must do it with regard to science and current legitimate research. We must prepare the athletes in a specific manner making sure the sequencing is concurrent with the running training. In order to be a “specific” exercise it must meet these criteria: 1)Replicate the same ROM of the activity. 2)Replicate the same joint actions of the activity. 3)Replicate the muscular contraction and neuromuscular pathway of the activity. Much like running, before we engage in specific training we must have an adequate base of general training. GPP- Strengthening of the lower body muscles with upper body as well (emphasizing lower). Free weights should be used, as much standing exercises as possible. Power lifts- Squat, Bench, Deadlift, And rows/pull-ups. To prevent hypertrophy and increase velocity of concentric (positive) portion of lift, a rest pause in between each rep is optimal. Do a rep, rack, shake your legs, repeat. Low reps work best. SPP- Development of local muscular endurance. Local is in reference to the lactate shuttle of the mitochondria of the skeletal muscles. Even though the kidneys and liver buffer lactate exponentially better than the skeletal muscles, once exercise starts blood flows from the central organs to the periphery. Thus we must rely on the buffering capacity of the mitochondria. VO2MAX increase are marginal and take a long time in trained runners, developing the local abilities is easier, safer, and quicker. Three Variants: 1)2-3 sets of 1-2’ w/ 30s-1’ rest (steady velocity) 2)6-10 sets of 30s w/30s down to 10s rest (1 rep/s or faster) 3)6-10 sets of 8-12 reps w/1’ down to 10s rest (Maximum speed and power) This stuff works, promise. I know because I do it. Hopefully it’ll work out in the spring. Source? www.verkhoshansky.com remember he’s talking about doped athletes. Once again I've put in a long post (I used to go by Lydiard). |
| OldSub4 |
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Rodal was one of the best ever, he probably could handle that pre-race as a shakeout workout where no one else could! I think this is probably pretty individualized, but if I had a race on a saturday where I wanted to go hard, I would do a hard workout no less than 72 hours previous (like wednesday). Thursday I might do an 8 miler steady to clean out the system, and friday am travel. Friday PM I would warm up 4 or 5 and do either 3 * 200m or 400m - 200-200 just to loosen up. It would be under 60, sometimes 56 but not faster. I needed sometime particularly after a plane flight to loosen up and rehydrate. Am of race 2 mile jog to wake up, be done eating no less than 4 hours before and try to stay off my feet until I would start my race countdown from 50 minutes out. |
| U.N.O. |
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800m is about 65-70% AEROBIC dominant. So, LOTS of aerobic training needs to be done. There is no shortcuts. All of this weight work, plyos are just spices. |
| captain oats |
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bump |
| Anthony Colotti |
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Actually the 800 is anywhere for 40-50% aerobic. 2' is about the time when the aerobic system starts to kick in. There are several legitimate studies done in the Soviet Union,US and Europe with a control group and an intervention group that did explosive/muscular endurance weight training. The intervention group did less mileage as the control. The intervention group improved significantly while the controls did not despite running more mileage. Again, in trained athletes the efficiency of the skeletal muscle is so much more important than central factors (cardiac output/VO2). |
| gt800 |
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Different studies have suggested different results, but the vast majority I have read have all stated that the 800 is over 50% anaerobic. I'm completely willing to accept that this will vary for different people and any program needs to take into account each individual's specific needs. So for that reason I whilst I think aerobic work is important, I think that training the anearobic system is slightly more important (but obviously you need both in a good program). Correct me if I've misread your comment, but I read it as saying that cutting back on aerobic work is a "shortcut". If you are replacing it with a lactic tolerence session, which if you have enough speed to do properly will hurt a hell of a lot more than a tempo or long steady, is most definately not a shortcut. I feel many athletes who neglect speedwork are often unable to do the lactic tolerence sessions at sufficient speed to reap the benefits (eg the athlete that can run a flat out 300, then 1 minute later run the same time - that's not because they are fit, it's because they are slow!) Obviously if the 800 athlete sees themself as a miler also the aerobic content of their training needs to be higher to reflect their ambitions over the longer event. Also, remember some studies have shown the 100 to be around 10% aerobic, and Kratochvilova ran the world record off 200m training (doping or not, that's the training that worked) - something to consider when addressing the quantity of aerobic training needed for the 800. |
| curiously |
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Those are the old studies. The new studies suggest 60+% aerobic. Do a search on pubmed and you'll find the stuff. Of course it's going to vary a bit by individuals, but some of these studies used some pretty good 800m runners (1:52 types). |
| gt800 |
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Had a quick look - some interesting reading (could only get the abstracts) and I accept that those studies showed over 50% aerobic. I could pick holes in the studies, but I'm well aware that the studies I have based my views that the 800 is for most predominantly anearobic are not without their flaws - it seems all sports medicine/physiology studies somehow get away with standards of testing that wouldn't be accepted in other arenas whether I agree with them or not! My point would be, if we take the figure I personally dispute of 60% aerobic, how many 800 athletes are going WAY over that in terms of the proportion of time and effort they spend in targeting the aeoribic system. Not many I'd imagine. If during a week an athlete does daily recovery runs, 4 or 5 steady runs and a long run at the weekend then that is probably going to make up over 60% of the focus - where does the rest come in? I would suggest that even going by the higher aerobic figure, many athletes are still neglecting training the anaerobic system and basic speed. |
| gt800 |
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Oops - really should proofread! In the second para I meant that lots ARE dedicating over 60% time and effort to the aerobic system. Really enjoying the intelligent and informed debate - by far the best thread on here for a while! |
| flow |
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it's a great thread - one thing that might be important is that over a half year cycle of 26 weeks - half may be focused on aerobic development and the other half anaerobic. So the proportions will change as the training period progresses. What may be 90% aerobic in week 1 may well become 90% anaerobic by week 25. |
| OR |
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The percentage of the race that is aerobic doesn't dictate the exact time spent training the system. If you can get 99% of the gain in one system with 2 hours work, but it takes 4 hours to get 99% in another system and your event is 50/50, your training is going to be 33:67 since you want to maximize both of those systems. In the real world some systems take longer to adapt, improve more or less in response training, and need different volumes to get the right result (a 10 mile run takes an hour. 6x400 all out takes less than 6 mins of anaerobic work and 30 mins of aerobic jogging). You can also aim to improve the energy systems different ways. You might run 70 mpw at an easy pace. I might run 5x1000 at 3k pace and do a 30 min tempo run. Those two different workout regimes might produce very similar changes in vo2max and LT. |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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Well the thing is, Aerobic development is unlimited but anaerobic development is NOT-there is a finite limit to how much energy can be produced by the anaerobic system, and you can reach that peak amount after 6-8 weeks of training. So what makes the difference? Aerobic training, because you can improve that steadily over the season, and over the years. If it is 60% or 40%, that must be the focus because that can be improved the most. Effeciency and power, because those can always be improved. Another factor is that aerobic training is less stressful on the body and you can only do workouts like (10X300 at 800 pace with short recovery) only so often without harming your body in the long run. Most athletes are less likely to become stale/injured on aerobic training. So if I had to form a training plan, I would split it into 4 parts: Part 1: Building up to running a lot of aerobic miles, say 100 per week, then reducing the pace of said miles till they are at the maximum aerobic pace. Also do strides to keep effeciency. Part 2:Keep building the aerobic system, but add some hills several times a week to build power and more effeciency. Maybe some hill bounding and springing too. Say, these sound familiar... Part 3: NOW start building the anaerobic system, it only takes a few weeks to fully develop. Part 4: Taper and win the 800m/1500m double at the olympics. |
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