Or you're wrong.
I've explained it enough, I'm sorry you don't get it. They do not have an amoritisation phase. Moving on. It's quite simple.
Or you're wrong.
I've explained it enough, I'm sorry you don't get it. They do not have an amoritisation phase. Moving on. It's quite simple.
sprinting has an amortization phase....
You might want to reread some stuff on plyos. A good book is Bosch's book for reactivity and learning how elastic return of energy works.
also, get off of yessis man. Most of his ideas are complete crap (especially on sprinting mechanics).
If you want a good read, go to any high level sprint board and ask about yessis. You'll get a good laugh.
This is news to me. Sprinting has an amortization phase of .03 seconds, bounding has one of .11 seconds and squat jumping has one .20 this all comes from a study done by I.King (1993) evaluating the stretch shortening cycle of different plyometrics. I'm sorry you couldnt explain further too, I'm sure a lot of people are sorry you couldn't explain further. It's so simple yes, and yet you ignore it when you state that very material.
Pmoax19, can you explain this amortization word please
as far as i know there is a phase between eccentric and concentric and this is a subtle and brief pause as direction is changed
is amortization equivalent to this pause?
(apologies if it has all been mentioned already - i will catch up on these posts later when i've gotten home after work)
fair enough you disagree but could you explain your opinion a little more - reliance of the universe to provide and hope that what you are already doing is correct just ain't enough for me.
cheers
I really care what anonymous people on boards (like you) say about a well respected expert in the field.
I will concede that most consider bounding to be plyometric, but there is no way skipping and sprinting are.
Also, I had the phase wrong that makes sprinting and skipping NOT plyometrics, I was a little tired. It is the STRETCH before, do you do a little stretch before you sprint and skip each time? No.
From
PLYOMETRICS: A review of plyometric training.
National Strength & Conditioning Association Journal. 13(6):22-34, December 1991.
Lundin, Phil 1; Berg, William 2
The key point to remember in the eccentric-concentric cycle is that the power of the overcoming methods of muscle increases when precede by a forcible pre-stretch.
But anyway, since this is about contributing, this is from EDWIN RIMMER AND GORDON SLEIVERT, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2000, 14(3), 295–301
Plyometrics is a type of training that develops the ability of muscles to produce force at high speeds (produce
power) in dynamic movements; these movements
involve a stretch of the muscle immediately followed
by an explosive contraction of the muscle. This pattern
of muscle contraction is known as the stretch-shorten
cycle (SSC) (12). Plyometric exercises include vertical jumps, during which the athlete jumps as high as possible
‘‘on the spot,’’ and bounds, during which the athlete
leaps as high and as far as possible, thus moving the body in the horizontal and vertical planes.
Dude, what is a bound except a very exagerated run.
Sprinting has a stretch phase too. It has every single one of those phases.
I understand where you are coming from but get of the books and use your mind. Break down how you land,push off with a simple bound or vertical jump series as compared to sprinting... Your body goes through the same phases basically.
Just concede, you made a mistake, it's okay. We all do.
Flow- I'll work on a response. Very nice response though, glad there was no attacking but just general interest. I know it's a strange concept to grasp, but it's what happens. Shortly, basically there's a stretch reflex on the hip. Extend the hip enough and you'll get a runner band like effect. more later.
There is a pre-stretch in skipping and sprinting. You do not understand the physiology of a muscle contraction I guess. The idea is to have as little of prestretch as possible, the reason why you do not perform a full squat while loading up to do a vertical jump. Honestly do you not think there is a pre-stretch in skip and sprint related activities? Your muscle stretch when you land that is the pre-stretch.
Dude, what is a bound except a very exagerated run.
Sprinting has a stretch phase too. It has every single one of those phases.
I understand where you are coming from but get of the books and use your mind. Break down how you land,push off with a simple bound or vertical jump series as compared to sprinting... Your body goes through the same phases basically.
Just concede, you made a mistake, it's okay. We all do.
Flow- I'll work on a response. Very nice response though, glad there was no attacking but just general interest. I know it's a strange concept to grasp, but it's what happens. Shortly, basically there's a stretch reflex on the hip. Extend the hip enough and you'll get a runner band like effect. more later.
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
If I run sub 1:50 (that is my goal) that will be taking 15+ seconds off my 800m time in 2 years. If that doesn't show effective training then I don't know what does.
I think this is where the "insane" comes in. It's pretty delusional to think you can go from 2:05 to 1:49 just like that. I wish you the best, but man, you have to start being more realistic with your goals.
I think your goal for indoors should be run a new pr - sub-2:05. Depending on how fast you progress, maybe you can think about running 1:59 by the end of the outdoor season. If you achieve that, that would be a hell of an improvement for a guy with no coach and no teammates.
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
If I run sub 1:50 (that is my goal) that will be taking 15+ seconds off my 800m time in 2 years. If that doesn't show effective training then I don't know what does.
I think this is where the "insane" comes in. It's pretty delusional to think you can go from 2:05 to 1:49 just like that. I wish you the best, but man, you have to start being more realistic with your goals.
I think your goal for indoors should be run a new pr - sub-2:05. Depending on how fast you progress, maybe you can think about running 1:59 by the end of the outdoor season. If you achieve that, that would be a hell of an improvement for a guy with no coach and no teammates.
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
If I run sub 1:50 (that is my goal) that will be taking 15+ seconds off my 800m time in 2 years. If that doesn't show effective training then I don't know what does.
I think this is where the "insane" comes in. It's pretty delusional to think you can go from 2:05 to 1:49 just like that. I wish you the best, but man, you have to start being more realistic with your goals.
I think your goal for indoors should be run a new pr - sub-2:05. Depending on how fast you progress, maybe you can think about running 1:59 by the end of the outdoor season. If you achieve that, that would be a hell of an improvement for a guy with no coach and no teammates.
Pmoax19 wrote:
This is news to me. Sprinting has an amortization phase of .03 seconds, bounding has one of .11 seconds and squat jumping has one .20 this all comes from a study done by I.King (1993) evaluating the stretch shortening cycle of different plyometrics. I'm sorry you couldnt explain further too, I'm sure a lot of people are sorry you couldn't explain further. It's so simple yes, and yet you ignore it when you state that very material.
I believe that I. King's study pointed to amortiziazion rates of .034 seconds for sprinting, closer to .12 seconds for bounding and almost a full quarter of a second for squat jumping. Check your figures, this is a very important topic and I wouldn't want anyone training improperly due to misinformation.
Perhaps we could talk about different plyometric exercises and how to do them instead of what they are called? For instance more about how an athlete should visualize the movements rather then amortization phases. Less physiology and more stuff that is useful for athletes...
for example a coach telling an athlete to "run hard for 30 minutes then do some strides" does a lot more for them then "run for 30 minutes at a constant blood lactate level of 3.5 then do some quick 95m repeats at mile pace with ground contact times of .115 seconds or less.
Can someone list a top 5 of plyometric exercises as relates to running and how to do them?
Pmoax19 wrote:
There is a pre-stretch in skipping and sprinting. You do not understand the physiology of a muscle contraction I guess. The idea is to have as little of prestretch as possible, the reason why you do not perform a full squat while loading up to do a vertical jump. Honestly do you not think there is a pre-stretch in skip and sprint related activities? Your muscle stretch when you land that is the pre-stretch.
There is, but it is not FORCEFUL. It is so fast it occurs naturally due to momentum. I do understand the physiology just fine.
If we are going to debate this further please actually back up what you are saying with factual, cited information.
Searching every single NSCA journal article on plyometrics dating back to 1984 there is not a single reference to sprinting and skipping as a plyometric exercise. This is again due to the fact that the pre-stretch during sprinting and skipping occurs due to natural momentum.
With true plyometric exercise one has to actively and forcefully engage the pre-stretch.
Think of a broad jump. If you just jump without actively exploding off the ground contact you will stay relatively in place. When you skip you make a double ground contact and your leg will come off of the ground under its own momentum.
I am trying to stay civil but I cannot explain it anymore without violating copyright laws and copying and pasting about 30+ articles into this forum.
GET OUT OF THE BOOKS!!!
Use your head man.
Sprinting isn't technically classified as a plyo in journals because why would you classify it as such? It has it's own entity. It is sprinting.
Running in itself is a plyo. Look at what plyometrics are, as defined by all of your journal articles, then go down the list and ask if running has that.
You hit the nail on the head that "It is not forceful." You're right, it's not AS forceful as other types of plyos. In fact it's at the very low end of the "forceful" range of plyos. Why? Because it is so specific, and the ground contact time is also the shortest. You can't have a great deal of overload with a high specificity. They are inverse to each other.
Sprinting is as specific as you can get for a "plyo." On the other end of the spectrum will be something with a high degree of overload, but low specificity to running (i.e. a much longer ground contact time).
Close to 2 pages about pylos and no one has mentioned and fully described any specific exercises...but there is plenty about whether sprints are defined as pylos or not, I guess that's useful.
I think you might be mistaking plyometric exercise with a plyometric contraction.
Sprinting/running is a plyometric contraction but not a plyometric exercise. No worries.
Now, distinctions like that are just semantics that really mean nothing in the real world.
By being a "plyometric contraction", it has to be a plyometric exercise.
It's just not thought of one by people because the overload is low. But, sprinting is a plyometric.
Why do you think distance runners use hill sprints so often. It's a way of getting the same benefits of doing traditional plyo work without the higher injury risk.
Think in terms of what the exercise does to classify it, not in technical jargon.
Can we move on to something productive now...
Old-Sub 4 (and any other knowledgeable posters),
I'm a born marathoner (tons of endurance because of very abundant slow-twitch fibers). But if I'm going to do reach my absolute best, I have to improve my weakness (which is my very pathetic 800m time). I have very few FT-fibers which result in lack of decent basic speed, lack of power, and poor glycolytic energy production. So, I'm working on improving my 800m time.
I'm pretty new to running and run by myself as I'm not good enough to run for my D1 school. So...
As far, as improving the oxidative abilities of my ST fibers go, I have that very much under control. I have a 2 week cycle going where I do one 2 hour long run, and anywhere from 4-5 tempo/threshold runs (ranging from 30-60 min @ marathon-10K effort; the very hard efforts usually are broken into reps).
As far as working on weaknesses, I'm doing 4-6 reps X 40 secs very hard uphills (with full recovery) to improve my glycolytic abilities (anaerobic capacity). I try and do this workout 2-3 times every 2 weeks.
Power and basic speedwork... I have done nada! How do I go with working on these. Do I do shorter hills @ 100% effort, or sprints, or weights, or plyos? I'm pretty lost as to how to get started? And how would you progress these workouts? Thanks for making this thread the best one I have seen in a very long time.