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| Pmoax19 |
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...Really because I read it as saying the Shock Method (depth jumps) is very specific and should not be used in a vauge sense to refer to plyometrics as a whole. I agree with you 100% about the shock phase and your prior warnings that a high level of strength must be attained prior to using them. You are right, I am not trying to argue that with you. Ok so if bounding, skipping, and hops aren't plyometrics the how can you perform them without.. 1. An eccentric contraction 2. A BRIEF AMORITISATION PHASE (no change in muscle length) 3. A short concentric contraction delivering maximum force in a short period of time do you skip by performing isometric contractions?!?!..... I skip by doing the exact steps for plyometrics by your 3 requirements. Sprinting is the most plyometric activity by nature, shortest ground contact times and shortest amoritisation phase. Either you don't want to accept that you made a mistake on this, or you cannot grasp that other activities are plyometric even though you just defined them as. There is a difference between regurgitating(sp) russian sport science and applying and understanding it, you come on here and try to impress everyone with your exotic sounding knowledge when you are just a very stubborn person. |
| Anthony Colotti |
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Or you're wrong. I've explained it enough, I'm sorry you don't get it. They do not have an amoritisation phase. Moving on. It's quite simple. |
| dunno |
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sprinting has an amortization phase.... You might want to reread some stuff on plyos. A good book is Bosch's book for reactivity and learning how elastic return of energy works. |
| dunno |
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also, get off of yessis man. Most of his ideas are complete crap (especially on sprinting mechanics). If you want a good read, go to any high level sprint board and ask about yessis. You'll get a good laugh. |
| Pmoax19 |
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This is news to me. Sprinting has an amortization phase of .03 seconds, bounding has one of .11 seconds and squat jumping has one .20 this all comes from a study done by I.King (1993) evaluating the stretch shortening cycle of different plyometrics. I'm sorry you couldnt explain further too, I'm sure a lot of people are sorry you couldn't explain further. It's so simple yes, and yet you ignore it when you state that very material. |
| flow |
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Pmoax19, can you explain this amortization word please as far as i know there is a phase between eccentric and concentric and this is a subtle and brief pause as direction is changed is amortization equivalent to this pause? (apologies if it has all been mentioned already - i will catch up on these posts later when i've gotten home after work) |
| flow |
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fair enough you disagree but could you explain your opinion a little more - reliance of the universe to provide and hope that what you are already doing is correct just ain't enough for me. cheers |
| Anthony Colotti |
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I really care what anonymous people on boards (like you) say about a well respected expert in the field. I will concede that most consider bounding to be plyometric, but there is no way skipping and sprinting are. Also, I had the phase wrong that makes sprinting and skipping NOT plyometrics, I was a little tired. It is the STRETCH before, do you do a little stretch before you sprint and skip each time? No. From PLYOMETRICS: A review of plyometric training. National Strength & Conditioning Association Journal. 13(6):22-34, December 1991. Lundin, Phil 1; Berg, William 2 The key point to remember in the eccentric-concentric cycle is that the power of the overcoming methods of muscle increases when precede by a forcible pre-stretch. But anyway, since this is about contributing, this is from EDWIN RIMMER AND GORDON SLEIVERT, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 2000, 14(3), 295301 Plyometrics is a type of training that develops the ability of muscles to produce force at high speeds (produce power) in dynamic movements; these movements involve a stretch of the muscle immediately followed by an explosive contraction of the muscle. This pattern of muscle contraction is known as the stretch-shorten cycle (SSC) (12). Plyometric exercises include vertical jumps, during which the athlete jumps as high as possible on the spot, and bounds, during which the athlete leaps as high and as far as possible, thus moving the body in the horizontal and vertical planes. |
| dunno |
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Dude, what is a bound except a very exagerated run. Sprinting has a stretch phase too. It has every single one of those phases. I understand where you are coming from but get of the books and use your mind. Break down how you land,push off with a simple bound or vertical jump series as compared to sprinting... Your body goes through the same phases basically. Just concede, you made a mistake, it's okay. We all do. Flow- I'll work on a response. Very nice response though, glad there was no attacking but just general interest. I know it's a strange concept to grasp, but it's what happens. Shortly, basically there's a stretch reflex on the hip. Extend the hip enough and you'll get a runner band like effect. more later. |
| Pmoax19 |
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There is a pre-stretch in skipping and sprinting. You do not understand the physiology of a muscle contraction I guess. The idea is to have as little of prestretch as possible, the reason why you do not perform a full squat while loading up to do a vertical jump. Honestly do you not think there is a pre-stretch in skip and sprint related activities? Your muscle stretch when you land that is the pre-stretch. |
| dunno |
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Dude, what is a bound except a very exagerated run. Sprinting has a stretch phase too. It has every single one of those phases. I understand where you are coming from but get of the books and use your mind. Break down how you land,push off with a simple bound or vertical jump series as compared to sprinting... Your body goes through the same phases basically. Just concede, you made a mistake, it's okay. We all do. Flow- I'll work on a response. Very nice response though, glad there was no attacking but just general interest. I know it's a strange concept to grasp, but it's what happens. Shortly, basically there's a stretch reflex on the hip. Extend the hip enough and you'll get a runner band like effect. more later. |
| observator |
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I think this is where the "insane" comes in. It's pretty delusional to think you can go from 2:05 to 1:49 just like that. I wish you the best, but man, you have to start being more realistic with your goals. I think your goal for indoors should be run a new pr - sub-2:05. Depending on how fast you progress, maybe you can think about running 1:59 by the end of the outdoor season. If you achieve that, that would be a hell of an improvement for a guy with no coach and no teammates. |
| observator |
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I think this is where the "insane" comes in. It's pretty delusional to think you can go from 2:05 to 1:49 just like that. I wish you the best, but man, you have to start being more realistic with your goals. I think your goal for indoors should be run a new pr - sub-2:05. Depending on how fast you progress, maybe you can think about running 1:59 by the end of the outdoor season. If you achieve that, that would be a hell of an improvement for a guy with no coach and no teammates. |
| observator |
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I think this is where the "insane" comes in. It's pretty delusional to think you can go from 2:05 to 1:49 just like that. I wish you the best, but man, you have to start being more realistic with your goals. I think your goal for indoors should be run a new pr - sub-2:05. Depending on how fast you progress, maybe you can think about running 1:59 by the end of the outdoor season. If you achieve that, that would be a hell of an improvement for a guy with no coach and no teammates. |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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I believe that I. King's study pointed to amortiziazion rates of .034 seconds for sprinting, closer to .12 seconds for bounding and almost a full quarter of a second for squat jumping. Check your figures, this is a very important topic and I wouldn't want anyone training improperly due to misinformation. Perhaps we could talk about different plyometric exercises and how to do them instead of what they are called? For instance more about how an athlete should visualize the movements rather then amortization phases. Less physiology and more stuff that is useful for athletes... for example a coach telling an athlete to "run hard for 30 minutes then do some strides" does a lot more for them then "run for 30 minutes at a constant blood lactate level of 3.5 then do some quick 95m repeats at mile pace with ground contact times of .115 seconds or less. Can someone list a top 5 of plyometric exercises as relates to running and how to do them? |
| Anthony Colotti |
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There is, but it is not FORCEFUL. It is so fast it occurs naturally due to momentum. I do understand the physiology just fine. If we are going to debate this further please actually back up what you are saying with factual, cited information. Searching every single NSCA journal article on plyometrics dating back to 1984 there is not a single reference to sprinting and skipping as a plyometric exercise. This is again due to the fact that the pre-stretch during sprinting and skipping occurs due to natural momentum. With true plyometric exercise one has to actively and forcefully engage the pre-stretch. Think of a broad jump. If you just jump without actively exploding off the ground contact you will stay relatively in place. When you skip you make a double ground contact and your leg will come off of the ground under its own momentum. I am trying to stay civil but I cannot explain it anymore without violating copyright laws and copying and pasting about 30+ articles into this forum. |
| dunno |
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GET OUT OF THE BOOKS!!! Use your head man. Sprinting isn't technically classified as a plyo in journals because why would you classify it as such? It has it's own entity. It is sprinting. Running in itself is a plyo. Look at what plyometrics are, as defined by all of your journal articles, then go down the list and ask if running has that. You hit the nail on the head that "It is not forceful." You're right, it's not AS forceful as other types of plyos. In fact it's at the very low end of the "forceful" range of plyos. Why? Because it is so specific, and the ground contact time is also the shortest. You can't have a great deal of overload with a high specificity. They are inverse to each other. Sprinting is as specific as you can get for a "plyo." On the other end of the spectrum will be something with a high degree of overload, but low specificity to running (i.e. a much longer ground contact time). |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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Close to 2 pages about pylos and no one has mentioned and fully described any specific exercises...but there is plenty about whether sprints are defined as pylos or not, I guess that's useful. |
| Anthony Colotti |
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I think you might be mistaking plyometric exercise with a plyometric contraction. Sprinting/running is a plyometric contraction but not a plyometric exercise. No worries. |
| dunno |
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Now, distinctions like that are just semantics that really mean nothing in the real world. By being a "plyometric contraction", it has to be a plyometric exercise. It's just not thought of one by people because the overload is low. But, sprinting is a plyometric. Why do you think distance runners use hill sprints so often. It's a way of getting the same benefits of doing traditional plyo work without the higher injury risk. Think in terms of what the exercise does to classify it, not in technical jargon. Can we move on to something productive now... |
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