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OldSub4
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/2/2008 7:03PM - in reply to hillrunningman Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

hillrunningman wrote:

Do not slow down. Do not decrease the slope. The point of these hill repeats is to clean up your stride and improve knee lift. A little bit of lactate is ok, but you do not want anything near that feeling you get at the end of an 800m track session. ie 3X3X300 or 4X400 or 12X200 with short rec etc. So shorten them. 30 seconds is a bit too long. 4 seconds would seem too short for practical purposes, unless you did about 100 of them. Somewhere between 12-18 seconds sounds good. I do 15 seconds, although I do not time them.

Soreness is not caused by lactic acid. It is caused by microtears in the muscles. That is why lifting weights causes soreness, as does downhill running.


Agree 100%, I did/do about 18 second hills, and then i have a couple minute jog/walk in between...the session takes 40 minutes or so; you have to be patient so that you dont build up lactic acid. Also, this way you can fit this session into your normal strength regimen without completely exhausting your system....just soreness for microtearing the fast twitch muscles, which you can run mileage on.

One thing that I do when I am starting to feel the head spinning is to not focus on turnover--just explode through each stride and exaggerate the back kick on the hill (otherwise it gets cut off) to work the glut and upper hamstring--you are "bounding" more and it feels like a weight room workout, but with the perfect dynamics of running.

I can tell for an older runner who is experimenting on myself, the power training is something you have to focus on. My stride length/explosive power sucks right now...
OldSub4
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/2/2008 7:27PM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

What have I started? This thread is 800m training, not 800m physiology! I guess it is all fair game though, and certainly helpful reading.

Why is aerobic power reduced near the end of the race? I would think that would be when it is working in overdrive.

Does the previous use of the anerobic system (first lap) get in the way of the aerobic systems functioning properly?

Is this why Lydiard says that anaerobic work halts aerobic conditioning during the base phase, and that you cannot train hard and race hard at the same time?


I believe Lydiard was referring to lactic acid tolerance work--speed endurance training that was aimed at the ezymatic response. I dont think that it gets you in worse aerobic shape, but it competes for you energy--you just cant keep your regime of mileage/LT threshold work when you are doing this work; you will get EXTREMELY fatigued and your mechanics will break down. It builds a peek that becomes stale very quickly--your endocrine system is prone to "habituate" -- ie it will hypertrophy initially to a stimulus and then over time it will tune it out and stop responding and receed. It is like if you put a loud noise in your ear--at first it is piercing but if you keep it there after a while you cant hear it (not because you are deafened!)Burning out is definately not mental...if an athlete is starting to tail off in performance after a big breakthrough in my experience they are toast and need to rest. Obviously if it was a mistimed peek and they have a championship event that they have to hang onto as a coach you have find a way to be creative and keep stimulating the system, but only with variation.

I went to a USATF middle distance retreat once September with a couple of decent up a comers (only about 7 of us) and Peter Snell was there...he definately described the distance regime (FYI he was doing repeats and tempo runs during his 100 mile weeks but they were in the context of a distance run and not on the track...) but the idea was to get a HUGE general base in. It definately was not all purely aerobic capacity work...very similiar the the systems we are describing here, and consistent with Canova, Gagliano, etc for the Base and Strength phases. Pre-Olympics he did 4-6 weeks of extremely specific sharpening work....he said he was always amazed how fast he could run off the base, and how quickly his legs adapted to the speed training, leading to a very sharp peek in middle distance performance. At the time he was an exercise physiologist in Texas studying the mechanisms of all the things he had done, and he was becoming very certain that everyone post Lydiard over-did the sharpening phase.

He also admitted that he, Elliott, and Walker all had very good natural speed, and didnt need to focus on it quite as much. He thought that the power work that Coe did was the difference between a 1;44 guy and running 1:41.

He also would think of a full training season as only about 18 weeks....10-12 weeks of mileage, 4-5 weeks of speed, couple weeks of competing, then back to the start again---typical for a guy running the down under season and then the european summer season. Walker thought he would just keep compounding his trength training on build up after build up....this was a bit more for the mile but all of them ran damn good 800m for their generation.
imunworthy
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/2/2008 7:32PM - in reply to OldSub4 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense – I’ll try shortening the repetitions to 15s, or a little less until I’m able to finish the whole workout in style (and without going too lactic)
fUrCeOsNhN
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/2/2008 7:34PM - in reply to OldSub4 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

OldSub4 wrote:

Agree 100%, I did/do about 18 second hills, and then i have a couple minute jog/walk in between...the session takes 40 minutes or so; you have to be patient so that you dont build up lactic acid. Also, this way you can fit this session into your normal strength regimen without completely exhausting your system....just soreness for microtearing the fast twitch muscles, which you can run mileage on.

One thing that I do when I am starting to feel the head spinning is to not focus on turnover--just explode through each stride and exaggerate the back kick on the hill (otherwise it gets cut off) to work the glut and upper hamstring--you are "bounding" more and it feels like a weight room workout, but with the perfect dynamics of running.

I can tell for an older runner who is experimenting on myself, the power training is something you have to focus on. My stride length/explosive power sucks right now...



hillrunningman was me, my username was not working when I was trying to post for some reason.

There are some drills that I have started using on hills

-buttkicks with very high turnover focusing on the hamstrings. (This one is interesting because you can feel the effects the very next day. I did these last night and during my tempo run this afternoon I could feel that my hamstrings were more active then usual and my feet were lifting up behind me more then usual.)

-high knees with very high turnover focusing on knee lift and short ground contact times.

-high knees with moderate turnover focusing on driving the leg back with the glutes and hamstrings-firing the muscles in the back of the upper leg to extend the hip quickly and powerfully.

-bounding focusing on attaining vertical height with calves and hip extension.

These along with normal short hill sprints should improve anyones stride quite a bit.

NO HEELSTRIKING. If you somehow manage to heel strike up an 8-10% slope during these then your form is probably complete crap on the flat.

I always felt that during hard training what mattered most on how you felt during a run was not your aerobic fitness but how recovered the legs are and how worn down or fresh the nervous system is. If you feel good doing short hills, you are ready to go for a hard workout, but if you feel lethargic and unexplosive during short hills, it's generally a no go for those intervals tomorrow.

Also here is the link to the 800m training article in bmc news, it is great. (It was posted before but it's worth posting again.)

http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/2002autumn.pdf
fUrCeOsNhN
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/2/2008 7:45PM - in reply to OldSub4 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

OldSub4 wrote:

I believe Lydiard was referring to lactic acid tolerance work--speed endurance training that was aimed at the ezymatic response. I dont think that it gets you in worse aerobic shape, but it competes for you energy--you just cant keep your regime of mileage/LT threshold work when you are doing this work; you will get EXTREMELY fatigued and your mechanics will break down. It builds a peek that becomes stale very quickly--your endocrine system is prone to "habituate" -- ie it will hypertrophy initially to a stimulus and then over time it will tune it out and stop responding and receed. It is like if you put a loud noise in your ear--at first it is piercing but if you keep it there after a while you cant hear it (not because you are deafened!)Burning out is definately not mental...if an athlete is starting to tail off in performance after a big breakthrough in my experience they are toast and need to rest. Obviously if it was a mistimed peek and they have a championship event that they have to hang onto as a coach you have find a way to be creative and keep stimulating the system, but only with variation.




Very interesting. Thank you for that.

I agree that burnout is not primarilly mental, although for some people it is.
wellnow
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/3/2008 9:16AM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

What have I started? This thread is 800m training, not 800m physiology! I guess it is all fair game though, and certainly helpful reading.

Why is aerobic power reduced near the end of the race? I would think that would be when it is working in overdrive.

Does the previous use of the anerobic system (first lap) get in the way of the aerobic systems functioning properly?

Is this why Lydiard says that anaerobic work halts aerobic conditioning during the base phase, and that you cannot train hard and race hard at the same time?


In an 800 you reach VO2max around 500 or so and hold it for a while. But in the last 100m as you know you are gradually slowing down even though you are trying harder and harder.

Why do we slow down? Because racing generates heat and as heat production rises, there comes a point where enzyme reactions slow down, so you work harder to maintain the pace, but there has to be a point where the energy systems are shutting down, and this is very noticeable in the last few strides of an 800m race.

Why did Lydiard say that anaerobic work halts aerobic conditioning in the base phase? Well for a start he was using the words "anaerobic work" incorrectly. In a race such as an 800, you aren't "going anaerobic" the opposite is happening, the second lap is more aerobic than the first.

However, what he wanted his runners to do was to condition themselves to be able to handle lots of fast pace work several weeks later, and history and experience told him that the best way to do this was with a lot of mileage at slower paces in the base phase. That's not how I train, because I race all year round, but Lydiard was not in favor of this.
fUrCeOsNhN
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/3/2008 11:19AM - in reply to wellnow Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

wellnow wrote:

Why do we slow down? Because racing generates heat and as heat production rises, there comes a point where enzyme reactions slow down, so you work harder to maintain the pace, but there has to be a point where the energy systems are shutting down, and this is very noticeable in the last few strides of an 800m race.




I thought higher temperatures generally lead to increased rates of reactions, at least in a test tube environment.

I agree that the body can overheat during a distance run, impairing performance but does this happen during a race as short as 800 meters?

Is there a mechanism that shuts down the aerobic system to prevent more work being done? Is there a way to train the aerobic system to keep going longer then usual?
wellnow
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/3/2008 12:12PM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
My guess is that initially, a slight increase in temperature in the muscle will increase enzyme activity.

There is an optimum temperature range for enzymatic reactions and this is likely to be slightly higher than the bodies resting core temp of 37C perhaps the optimum range for mitochondrial (aerobic) enzyme reactions is maybe 39-41 (at a guess) above the optimum range the reactions slow down, this is inevitable in a race such as an 800m, so you pace yourself accordingly judgeing your effort on previous training and racing experience.

I don't think that training will alter the optimum temp range for aerobic enzymes, but in longer races we may be able to tolerate a higher core temp when we are in top condition. Noakes has a chapter on this in his Lore of running vol 4. His references are limited but one study suggests that marathon winners tolerate a core temp of 41C at the end of the race. This would require very good biomechanics however. Often in a marathon a runners legs tighten up before the end of the race and this is the limiting factor which slows them down, whereas someone having a better race doesn't get such stiff legs and they maintain pace better resulting in a higher core temp than the guy whose legs stiffen up.

Is there a mechanism which shuts down the aerobic system? I don't know for sure but would put money on my guess that excess heat production will have this effect. Also as this process happens gradually it is bound to limit the amount of hydrogen ions which can be shuttled into the mitochondria. So aerobic enzyme shut down causes rising acidity, not the other way round. I think that is the most logical explanation.

Also, bear in mind that we get tired as we lose concentration, so we work harder as we lose running form.

Now if you consider that the second lap of an 800 is more aerobic than the first, then this can give you insight into the fact that you can extend your second lap pace (sub 60 second pace hopefully) to longer and longer distances.
fUrCeOsNhN
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/4/2008 1:12PM - in reply to wellnow Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You keep mentioning that the first lap of the 800 is anaerobic, and I agree. Is that just for the 800m however?

When Bekele drops a 53 second last lap in the 10k surely that is more anerobic then his first lap of 63-67, right? Same with Lel kicking in the last 400m of a marathon.


What about the 1500? Is the first lap the most anaerobic too?
junior training
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/4/2008 10:16PM - in reply to Pmoax Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Pmoax wrote:

I don't have too much practical experience other than my own, which isn't a good representation of the population as a whole. If I had a chance to go back 4 years I would put a huge emphasis on GPP. You could probably go the whole year in GPP except for maybe a couple SPP weeks but no special prep I think is required. Lots of stuff like 12X200 with 2-3 minute rest at 800m goal pace, tempo runs, hills, general weights, conditioning circuits, 8X300 at just slower than 800m pace with 3 minute rest. In general I would keep everything on grass. I think not going to either extreme helps keep people fresh, in my opinion there is no reason to go over 40 miles a week and no reason to be doing any sort of high stress speed work. Form drills like mentioned before would help improve form. A good sesion might be:
Dynamic Warm Up (15-20 Minute)
Technique Drills
20X100 @70-75% with 1:30 recovery
2 Mile Run For Cool Down


"8X300 at just slower than 800m pace with 3 minute rest. In general I would keep everything on grass. I think not going to either extreme helps keep people fresh, in my opinion there is no reason to go over 40 miles a week and no reason to be doing any sort of high stress speed work"

800 m goal pace all year round?
is this example of your gpp or your spp ?
Pmoax
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/4/2008 10:57PM - in reply to junior training Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I would say this would be good gpp. you can manipulate a variable like the rest down to around 2 minutes as you get more effecient. I would do these at goal race pace, and if you find that you are unable to complete them at first increase the rest. the more comfortable you are at race pace the better.

spp might be more like 6x300 at goal pace for first 300m of the race. so if we go along with the theme of the thread sub 1:50 good splits would be 53,56 with probably a first 300 in about 39. the difference from the gpp which would have been about 42 seconds.
junior training
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 5:50AM - in reply to Pmoax Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Pmoax wrote:

I would say this would be good gpp. you can manipulate a variable like the rest down to around 2 minutes as you get more effecient. I would do these at goal race pace, and if you find that you are unable to complete them at first increase the rest. the more comfortable you are at race pace the better.

spp might be more like 6x300 at goal pace for first 300m of the race. so if we go along with the theme of the thread sub 1:50 good splits would be 53,56 with probably a first 300 in about 39. the difference from the gpp which would have been about 42 seconds.


I think your general winter training should involve mainly steady running. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be including a couple of tough lactic work each week all year round.

I would have agreed with you at some stage. I think what you are suggesting would bring about short term results but not be good for long term development.
burlamacco
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 7:30AM - in reply to junior training Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Old sub 4 et al: What do you think of this winter training?

Monday: AM Hill sprints / PM Tempo run
Tuesday: Plyometrics and weights
Wednesday: AM Easy run 40 min / PM Fartlek (sth. like 5 x 3 min with 2 min rest)
Thursday: Tempo run
Friday: AM Easy run 40 min / PM sprints or Hills (sth. like 8 x 2 min with 90s rest), one week sprints and the next hills and so on
Saturday: Longjogg 75-90min
Sunday: off

Thanks for your advice.
6:00miler
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 8:10AM - in reply to burlamacco Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Monday: AM Hill sprints / PM Tempo run
Tuesday: Plyometrics and weights
Wednesday: AM Easy run 40 min / PM Fartlek (sth. like 5 x 3 min with 2 min rest)
Thursday: Tempo run
Friday: AM Easy run 40 min / PM sprints or Hills (sth. like 8 x 2 min with 90s rest), one week sprints and the next hills and so on
Saturday: Longjogg 75-90min
Sunday: off


Don't take two days off from running, do a 30 minute easy run at least
Pmoax
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 9:28AM - in reply to junior training Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

junior training wrote:


Pmoax wrote:

I would say this would be good gpp. you can manipulate a variable like the rest down to around 2 minutes as you get more effecient. I would do these at goal race pace, and if you find that you are unable to complete them at first increase the rest. the more comfortable you are at race pace the better.

spp might be more like 6x300 at goal pace for first 300m of the race. so if we go along with the theme of the thread sub 1:50 good splits would be 53,56 with probably a first 300 in about 39. the difference from the gpp which would have been about 42 seconds.


I think your general winter training should involve mainly steady running. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be including a couple of tough lactic work each week all year round.

I would have agreed with you at some stage. I think what you are suggesting would bring about short term results but not be good for long term development.


I think one session of 8x300 would hardly stimulate short term results when performed every 2 weeks or so. I don't see anything else that I outlined that causes a large amount of lactic durring a session. I agree with some steady state training but I think it doesn't need to be as often as many people think, 2-3 days a week is what I am doing right now. I have gotten many of my training theories from Charlie Francis. For those of you that do not know him he was Ben Johnsons coach. He has said on many occasions that 3 miles of easy running could easily be replaced by 3 miles of extensive tempo on grass which would benifit the capacity of the runner more. Stephen Francis (asafa powell's) coach said the same thing recently, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13ZpOZdJaaQ&eurl=http://www.elitetrack.com/blogs/details/4072/
I think it is that video but it might be another in the series. S Francis says if you have to do 3k of work then you should do 10x300 instead of 3k of jogging.
I know this is kinda biasing myself towards one side but people like asafa powell and hicham el gurrouj both had soccer playing backgrounds developing high levels of general fitness and coordination. Soccer is essentially a long tempo workout.

Side note: does anyone have insight to Rashid Ramzi's training?
author name
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 10:36AM - in reply to Pmoax Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Pmoax,

Johnson was and Powell is a 100m runner! How you can suggest training like a sprinter to middle distance runner?
Sprinters havenīt hardly any slow twitches, thatīs why they canīt or wonīt like to do any steady slow running.
Sure an 800m runner have to do sprinters type training but also in the winter especially, he/she trains almost like long distance runner. If he/she wants to get the level of endurance to there where it should be. Itīs a mixture of various paces and hard work.

And those longer race-pace sessions are a waist of time in the winter, those should be 100m (at maximum) reps only. Those you can do much more and, what is more important, without too much of lactate.
flow
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 10:49AM - in reply to junior training Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

junior training wrote:

I think your general winter training should involve mainly steady running. Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be including a couple of tough lactic work each week all year round.

I would have agreed with you at some stage. I think what you are suggesting would bring about short term results but not be good for long term development.


i agree with this wholeheartedly junior trainer, but this is not something normally said by a junior trainer, so unless you are very wise surely you are closer to a senior trainer than a junior :)
flow
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 11:10AM - in reply to burlamacco Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

burlamacco wrote:

Old sub 4 et al: What do you think of this winter training?

Monday: AM Hill sprints / PM Tempo run
Tuesday: Plyometrics and weights
Wednesday: AM Easy run 40 min / PM Fartlek (sth. like 5 x 3 min with 2 min rest)
Thursday: Tempo run
Friday: AM Easy run 40 min / PM sprints or Hills (sth. like 8 x 2 min with 90s rest), one week sprints and the next hills and so on
Saturday: Longjogg 75-90min
Sunday: off

Thanks for your advice.


I'm not OldSub4 but i do like 95% of what he says, however, to beat him to the punch here i thought i would answer.

Firstly can you define tempo run for me, I am not a US person and still don't know what tempo running is as defined by US runners. It does seem to be a term used extensively in your country though.

Looking at your approach to Winter/base training or Gen Prep Phase as i use (being more Soviet trained than anything else).

One of the schools were i ran a track and field program does some of these sessions you are using throughout their entire XC season (i'm not directly involved in that program). This school has a highly successful XC program, they have won their last two XC premierships and i would say is presently the second best XC boys school in Australia behind a school driven primarily by a Lydiard approach. (Which i would implement also if i had control of the XC program at my school).

Basically they do two main sessions on Tues and Thurs with a race on sat and recommended longer runs on the other days. The sessions are all off 1 min recovery. All of the sessions run for 20mins in total for the juniors (15 years and below) and 25-30 mins for the seniors (16 years and above)

Sample sessions for the seniors are:

5x4min/1min = 24min
7x3min/1min = 27min
10x2min/1min = 29min
13x1min/1min = 25min

Now i like this for race specific training but not for the general prep training and so i did an experiment. I was able to experiment because tow of the athletes wanted me to directly coach them through the XC season as i also coached them privately as track athletes. One was an 800m runner and one was a 1500m runner.

So i used Lydiard principles as i understand them during the first half of the season (season length 15 weeks).

What happened was that they were well off the pace during the first 5 races in the first half of the season but with my reassurance did not panic. After the mid-season holiday break from competitions i kept a lot of their long running going whilst allowing them to join the normal school training sessions.

By the end of the season not only had they moved into the top end of the school team but were running PB's by much larger margins than anyone else in the team had managed all season. The continuous improvement that they gained in the second half of the season was obvious to all as the rest of the team improved only marginally through the second half.

Furthermore they were in a better position to enter the track and field season with a deeper and stronger base and greatly improved aerobic capacity than their teammates. I also feel they recover better from training and racing than their teammates now.
flow
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 11:14AM - in reply to wellnow Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
wellnow Mr Apple

i'm still waiting for you to prove to me the first lap is more anaerobic than the second. Please provide something and be prepared for a discussion about it. It might not be so cut and dried as the physiology experiments prove.

flow
tj
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 10/5/2008 11:16AM - in reply to author name Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I think he acknowledged his ideas would appeal more to a sprint based 800m runner.

It always amazes me how so many people are perfectly happy to see an 800m runner training with 10k runners
(12.5x race distance), but get axious when they start doing sessions with 400 (0.5x race distance) groups.

I think if you have indoor facilities or a warm climate and can do pure speed safely, that sort of work through winter is just as important in setting you up for the later 800 specific sessions. An aeorobic base is important. A high lactate threshold is important. Having a high level of basic speed so that you can do your lactic tolerence work at a decent pace is important.

But that said it is much easier to go out for longer runs - I myself have opted for the easy option in the past by going for an hour at 150bpm after a tough day at work. Anyone who thinks sprint training is the easy option has neglected it too long to be able to do it hard enough.
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