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| i shuffle |
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Hey guys - As everyone else has said, great thread. Since I was more of a pure distance guy and never did drills, all of this advanced stuff is pretty interesting to me. Anyway, my current training involves basically nothing other than 80mpw and stretching, and I'm wondering what two or three drills/exercises you 800 gurus would recommend to improve running form (specifically toe-off and knee drive). I.e. can all of the techniques from this thread be boiled down into a few exercises w/most of the benefits for a distance-oriented runner? |
| Anthony Colotti |
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1) Do NOT static stretch BEFORE a run, and I really wouldn't do it after a hard workout. You have already done a ton of eccentrics, it's not a good idea to do more with an hour of stretching (research supported). -Only do active stretches (2s holds 6-8x's) and mobility drills THE RIGHT DAMN WAY (get a Strength coach to look at it) 2) Forward leg swings- KEEP YOUR LEGS STRAIGHT!!!! Work on moving at the HIP not LOW BACK. Put your hand on your low back on the same side leg, it should only move slightly. -Do 2 sets of 15-20 each leg of each variation-90 and 45 degrees of knee flexion, slight bend and straight leg. Remember to keep your core tight and back mostly flat (you get some flexion NOT MUCH). -If you cannot get up past 90 degrees comfortably and CORRECTLY get it checked for a mobility restriction. Especially if you feel a “pinch” in you groin. 3) Quadruped leg circles (fire hydrants)- Get on all fours (fun), keep you back FLAT and bring your legs out, around, and forward. 2 sets of 20 each leg. 4) High Knees- Lean forward at the HIPS (chest up), cock your toes up and drive your knees FORWARD FAST. Stay RELAXED, do not look like you’re getting gang banged by Angus Bulls please. 5) Bounding- NOT SKIPPING!!! Stand on one leg with a bent knee, other leg back and mostly straight. Drive off of the plant leg, try to drive your WHOLE LEG into the ground. Land on other leg. USE YOUR ARMS! Then progress to doubles (two jumps), triples, and so one so you can do them continuously with a SINGLE ground contact (like running stupid). Best plyometrics for running and in my opinion probably the only one you need. I go to grad school at UVA (exercise physiology) and train my ass off so I’m busy now, but I am most likely gonna start seriously making videos to fulfill a class requirement and the need for someone to show everyone correct form and execution. Not to mention I get a lot of e-mails anyways. I really think we are missing it big time here with training in America, and it is right in front of our faces, but because the people who know this information are big guys/girls (S&C coaches) and we are little, there is a “size goggle” bias that is killing us. |
| foomiler |
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You mean 2:40-3:05 right? You bet it is! More subtle for El G initially, but u can see him pulling away near the end of the 1st curve. More obvious for Lagat though. But El G only really starts to 'sit' obviously a bit later when the camera turns to side view. I think Lagat had to pull out his kick way early just to keep up with El G's initial surge, while El G probably saved his a while later. Shows us just how aerobically superior El G was compared to Lagat, and to the rest of the filed, such that he didn't need to dig too deep to change gears. Also speaks a lot of his control & fluency in stride mechanics. |
| Mr. Ray |
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wellnow, I agree, in part. Once you've developed a strong aerobic system, then less time and effort needs to be spent maintaining, or recovering that condition again. My physiological mental model is best described by a graph here: http://home.hia.no/~stephens/timecors.htm The model describes 3 sources of improvements: - VO2max changes plateau first, e.g. ~1 year - LT changes plateau later, e.g. ~3-4 years - Remaining changes are due to improvements in efficiency The actual timescales may be different, and things change depending on how you train, on season and off season, but this picture for me is worth 1000 words. It's a general picture, but that's really as deep as I need to get into the physiological aspects. When you talk about muscle contractility and neuro-muscular coordination, isn't that (in part) what leads to better efficiency? Regards,
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| fUrCeOsNhN |
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About 2:40-3:05 race time but 3:40-4:05 video time. I don't think El G was all that aerobically superior to Lagat...just enough to beat him by a little bit 95% of the time. |
| Kevin3310 |
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-Do 2 sets of 15-20 each leg of each variation-90 and 45 degrees of knee flexion, slight bend and straight leg. Remember to keep your core tight and back mostly flat (you get some flexion NOT MUCH). i dont understand the variations, are these the ones wen ur holding a fence to the side? |
| Anthony Colotti |
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yes 90 degrees-knee makes a right angle 45-half way between You should figure out the rest Make sure sure back stays FLAT and the movement is from the hips!!! |
| OldSub4 |
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800m training for younger kids... Question is for a younger boy starting at 14 years of age to do some training. Clearly you reduce the workload and consider the skeletal strain on whether they are done growing or not, you are trying to introduce the athlete to training and also start developing them to continue to improve longer term. Question is, would you: A) train them focusing the efforts you are purposely limiting to faster quality work first and each year increase the aerobic work/ volume or B) train them as an elite would train with all the phases but at a reduced workload I read where Coe started off as a distance guy when he was 14 and worked all the way down to running the 400m when he was 17...then went back up.. It seems like Brother Colm O'Connell trains them 3 times per day at St Patricks in Iten, Kenya and they seem to do allright -- Kipketer is only 5th on the High School list! You do see some younger runners who train at elite volumes "burn out" but I couldnt tell if they were just runners who werent going to get any better (but overacheived in High School), or it was the mental aspect of too much pressure at a young age in the sport. I dont know if there is any physiological work on training for 14-18 year olds specifically. |
| Pmoax |
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I don't have too much practical experience other than my own, which isn't a good representation of the population as a whole. If I had a chance to go back 4 years I would put a huge emphasis on GPP. You could probably go the whole year in GPP except for maybe a couple SPP weeks but no special prep I think is required. Lots of stuff like 12X200 with 2-3 minute rest at 800m goal pace, tempo runs, hills, general weights, conditioning circuits, 8X300 at just slower than 800m pace with 3 minute rest. In general I would keep everything on grass. I think not going to either extreme helps keep people fresh, in my opinion there is no reason to go over 40 miles a week and no reason to be doing any sort of high stress speed work. Form drills like mentioned before would help improve form. A good sesion might be: Dynamic Warm Up (15-20 Minute) Technique Drills 20X100 @70-75% with 1:30 recovery 2 Mile Run For Cool Down |
| OR |
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If I went back 1) more tempo/progression runs. The only time we did them was when we ran a 6 miler hard 2) more "speed" work in the form of strides and short reps (150-300m) with long rests 3) Not as many hard anaerobic workouts (8x400 with 90s rest, or the 8x200 with 45s type workouts). 4) Drills and Plyo (assuming I had a good coach to teach them). I thought Plyo helped more than weights but maybe the 4 years of lifting gave a real good base for them. 5) Run strides/some quality over the summer. I just did the easy 50-60 miles and always seemed to have problems with XC with minor injuries which I blame on running all summer at 6:40-7:30 pace and then trying to race at 5:20 pace. YMMV 6) The highly controversial one. Go nuts senior year. Might as well gamble and run the 80-90 mpw for some weeks in the summer. If your a 16:30 5k runner, you are not going to be a stud in college. If you bust out a 15:30 as senior in XC you will be a pretty high finisher in most states. |
| junior year? |
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Or maybe go nuts junior year, that way if you bust out a good time it will help you get into a school. If you break down, then you will probably have a good chance of running ok on similar volume senior year. |
| OldSub4 |
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Speaking of juniors, do we know what Elijah Greer out of Lake Oswego, OR is doing for training. 1:47 as a jr is incredible...would be great to hear from anyone in his camp. |
| author name |
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Then why all 800m elites I know are running about 70-80miles weeks, Bucher ran sometimes almost 100mile weeks too. 40miles is not enough, that�s a fact. There is so much work to do if you are serious, that it just takes more. Sure it could be enough to get some good results though. |
| 20 good reasons |
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20 good reasons to do more than 40 mile weeks for 800 http://z12.invisionfree.com/Hunter_Reports/index.php?showtopic=432 |
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There is a huge difference between training a 14-18 year old and an elite guy. 40 seems a little low to me (write out a week with a tempo run, aerobic intervals, short intervals, and a long run) during base but 45-50 seems pretty reasonable for a 16to 18 year old.
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| fUrCeOsNhN |
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Good read, although the writer clearly is trying to show that each runner ran a lot of mileage. He backs it all up with quotes and first hand sources, which is good, but clearly he went about this with the intention of showing that the 800m requires lots of miles. -MOST ran between 60-120 miles per week (big cluster 70-80) -many ran doubles -hills are common -sprints/strides are common -the ones that did less mileage did lots of either 5k pace (coe) or threshold work 4:40-5:20 pace (cruz/cram). Many ways to skin the cat so to speak. -Many lifted weights -long run of 14-22 miles every 2-4 weeks(snell, borz, others, even coe) -long base phases (up to 24 weeks (cram) or more) -cross country used by many -profeciency at both shorter and longer distances is crucial (200/400 and 1500/5000), 400 and 1500 most important as they are closest to race pace/ energy demandsd. Many could run a decent 10k, and did. -Often the 800m was not their first choice of events-either a sprinter discovered that they could maintain their speed well (konchella, juanterena) or a distance runner who discovered that they could run 22 for 200m (wottle, coe, others) and were good at the 800m. But Juantorena ran 25k per day? Bullshit. |
| Kevin3310 |
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mind showing pictures or something of the variations i dont understand? = ( wen im swinging the leg towards the front of my body do i bend it like im doinga high knee? for the 90 degree one? |
| OR |
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Up to. So one day a week he ran 9miles in the morning and 6 at night. Yeah thats a lot for a 400m guy not so much for an 800m guy. Just don't extrapolate and assume he was doing 7x25km for the week. Never ever look at 1 or 2 week of a runners schedule and try to figure out what they were doing. You almost always get the one week where they ran 160 mpw or the one where they ran 3 incredible track workouts.
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| Pmoax |
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Then why all 800m elites I know are running about 70-80miles weeks, Bucher ran sometimes almost 100mile weeks too. 40miles is not enough, that�s a fact. There is so much work to do if you are serious, that it just takes more. Sure it could be enough to get some good results though.[/quote] You took my quote out of context, I was talking about 14 year olds, not world class runners. Just out of curiousity how many elite 800m runners do you know. |
| me o my |
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If I were training my kid I would have them doing speed and weights. Build strength. Train them like a 400 or 400-800 guy. I dont like the Coe method. It seems harder to go from strength to speed than speed to strength. When was the last time you saw an over distance runner move down and have great success. You always see under distance runners move up and do well. |
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