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sleepyRUNNER
FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 2:18AM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Hi all here's my background:

sub-1:10:00 half marathon on challenging course this spring. Training for this was getting to ~80 mi/week, 16 mi long runs, and long intervals - 2x4mi, 3x3mi, tempos - all on the roads, all on feel (crappy winter training too - sucky)

I'm thinking of doing a November Marathon debut - Philly? I'm looking at building up to 100 mi/week now and holding for ~3-5 weeks (depending on how my body reacts) and doing Jack Daniel's Running Formula elite marathon plan for the 18 weeks leading up.

Has anybody had experience with this plan? I know it's a pretty long cycle, but I like to put in a lot of miles before my first one so I can build upon it for future marathons - i've been at about 60 mi/week for the last month or so.

I'm not a huge fan of all the time predictions that float around here, but I'm thinking this should be solid training for a marathon debut of 2:26-2:30 on an honest course?

Discuss, rip my plan apart, ask questions, share experience, etc....
sleepyRUNNER
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 2:26AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

sleepyRUNNER wrote:

- i've been at about 60 mi/week for the last month or so.




I only mentioned this before in the spirit that I feel very rested and very ready to get back into decent mileage. I feel lazy doing 60 mi/week.

My build up will be 70,80,90,100,100,100 and evaluate what the next two weeks will be like before jumping into Daniel's workouts.

note - This is usually how i build my mileage - I ramp up quick and maintain - I'm very low-risk with injuries and each consecutive week of the peak mileage feels easier.
caliRUNnow
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 7:35AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
This looks solid to me, I don't have too much experience w/ JD, but remember the basics and to LISTEN to your body - especially during your mileage build up

best of luck....
advice man
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 8:53AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I would just run every mile around 5:43 (or slightly under) on the day of your marathon. That should do it.
mar
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 9:21AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Longer long runs...

Alternate by doing 1 week 18 tempo-ish
next week 22 relaxed- easy just get it done
next week 20- moderate with last 5 tempo
next week 24 relaxed
next week 22 moderate last 5 tempo
next week 26 relax
next week 20 tempo ish
next week 27-28 overdistance
lohalloran
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 9:31AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
With your half time I think 2:25-2:30 is definitely doable your first time out. I have no experience with the JD schedule but in general I would just advise you to start focusing on one long run and one medium long run per week as you build you mileage. Start with your long run around 16 miles and medium long run around 11 miles and build them throughout your base period so that by the end you are running around 20-22 and 13-15 repsectively. Run them easily at first if you have to and once you start feeling pretty fit begin focusing on running the last 3-5 miles of your long run around marathon pace.
sleepyRUNNER
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 10:34AM - in reply to lohalloran Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
This is encouraging - the last two posts have advise that is already in my plan - JD has a similar progression for long runs.
good luck
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 10:43AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
JDs plan for LR is more complicated than those mentioned here. The long runs involve mixing easy, tempo, and marathon pace. To some, this has been crucial to getting them to where they are. To others, this is too rigid and complicated.
mar
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 10:57AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
sleepy. I dont know how to best explain the last 4 miles of a marathon. Pretend like you are 4 miles from your house on a long run and you started to get depleated 2 miles back. You have to get home. You have no choice but to keep going 4 miles....

You see the video of hall.. something like 10 miles steady 13 mile tempo 2 mile cool down..

Nothing but long runs can get your legs ready for the pounding. do the long runs on the road. I would suggest 1 over distance run.... 26-28 miles.. if you can handle it.
maybe do like 1 min surges every mile for the last five, just to get the feeling.
sleepyRUNNER
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 11:10AM - in reply to mar Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
how far out would you suggest the over distance (26-28mi) ? I'm looking at doing a half 9 weeks out from the marathon, and a 10k 4 weeks out - but the 10k isn't too important

Thanks!
mar
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 11:19AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It really depends on how your body reacts to the distances.

Some recover quicker then others I had about the same half times as you and ran 2:28 my first marathon. I have always felt better suited for the long stuff as Im a 100 mile week type and have been for a few years before I decided to acctualy race the distance.

I would say the over distance would be the week or so after the half.. Something like that may zap your legs for a week or more you feel stuck in first gear.

I would suggest write it out as a general plan and then tweek it as you go along. A buddy of mine.. basically same PR's would kill me in shorter tempos, ran nearly 120 miles a week, but kept his long runs at 18-20 miles easy on the trails. He ran 2:36.

If your running 80 miles and getting the long runs in I can assure you success. I would some weeks sacrafice a workout in order to have a better long run, or recover from it.

I dunno Thats just my personal experience
lohalloran
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 11:37AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Doing an overdistance run like that can have a big mental benefit, but it can also take alot out of you.

I would say you are better off doing several 22-24 mile long runs and maybe top out between 24 and 25 miles. Do your longest run 4 to 5 weeks out and then slowly start shortening you long runs as you get ready to taper. Something like 25, 21, 18, 13, marathon week.
response
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 2:57PM - in reply to lohalloran Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Looks all good to me. Best advise I'd give is be conservative on that first one. For your first marathon, there's no pressure unless you bring it upon yourself. Come through the half about a minute slower then you think you can - and if you come storming home the last 6-7 miles, it's better then the other side of the coin.
rejoinder
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 3:14PM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I think it looks good as well. I was in about exactly the same position 2 years ago and ran 2:31. The one thing I wished I had done was one more over-distance run. Besides that, long tempos and 8 miles steady, 11 miles at mp - workouts like this should be your bread and butter.

The best advice I can give is for RACE DAY. Go out SLOW and don't bother with the watch at all for the first 10k - seriously. Even if you're 30 seconds behind schedule at 10k - don't panic - you'll be 30 seconds slower PER MILE over the last 10k if you go out too fast. The other advice I would give is to have a willingness to adjust your goal according to the conditions. In my second marathon, I trained like crazy and was gunning for 2:25. Unfortunately, it was 85 degrees at the start. Had I been willing to readjust my focus to 2:29:59, I might have come away pleased. Instead, I tried to stick to 2:27 pace - which was still realistic - but it ended up being a little too optimistic as I was completely wasted and had to drop out at 23 miles (still on sub-2:30 pace). Show up to the start with a healthy dose of respect for the distance and the conditions, then you'll be fine.
Letsrun Longtimer
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 4:02PM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Overall, I would say the plan looks fine, and if you have run sub 70 on a tough course then you absolutely should be able to go sub230.

I am very familiar with Daniels - of course he knows his stuff. However, here are some tidbits from my experience.

1) Focus on developing your strength because if it's weak, the marathon wil expose it. It's very likely (and your sub70 shows it) that you have the speed required to reach your goal. So, many runners look great through 20, but are left wondering why the great training failed them in the late stages.

While the schedule & tempos look good, I think there can be a danger of doing the work "too good". By this, take for example the workout of the cruise miles with 10miles in between - a great workout. I think there could be a tendency for someone with relatively a lot of anaerobic talent to do the interval miles even faster than what the schedule calls for... and they may think they are in good shape because they can run the 1600s in 5:08 instead of 5:16 or whatever. But, in reality, they kind of made the workout into something that it wasn't designed. In fact, it would probably be better to have the middle 10 be very solid than to have the average of the intervals be quick. Even then, I can see someone bringing their A-game to this workout so that the next 2 days are both just 5 mile recovery days.

I'm taking too long to get to the point, but my point is that, for the marathon, it's more about a solid overall training package. It doesn't have to have super workouts... consistency and mileage (even if not so fast) are huge. I would rather be able to do the above workout like it was just another day (with sightly slower times) than to be able to pull out a great workout (but requiring a couple of days to recover from).

2) 5:25 - 6:00 minute pace is your friend. I would send more time at these speeds (as workouts, particularly in the last 6 weeks) than Daniels recommends (no disrespect to the coach). 6min pace will feel like an easy workout, but having a midweek workout of 13-15miles at 6pace will be very helpful. On the faster side, I would spend more time at 5:25ish (like 3 X 5K) than I would doing cruise interval miles at 5:15. Sounds like your half training, so I would just continue on with that.

3) Get yourself to the starting line healthy. I know you know this as it so basic. Nevertheless, even the best can be continually reminded of it. This goes for any race - it just seems when adding mileage, etc so many develop niggles that just continually worsen. Of course, as a distance runner, you probably live by the adage that maybe more miles will fix whatever your ailment is! Unfortunately, this typically leads to a crappy last month and/or serious concessions in the race itself. So, ironically, while you do want consistent and voluminous training, it is paramount that you listen to your body and back-off whenever need be. Is much preferable to have done good 70-80m weeks and feeling good than 100s, but feeling beat up and worn down (keeping in mind that everything being equal, I'd obviously rather take the 100s). With this in mind, be careful with the over-distance run. I have done it and felt it worked, and I have also mistakenly done it. I definitely don't think it's necessary.

So, no rocket science here. Just continue to put the work in like you have, putting emphasis on the overall training package and general health (I wouldn't for a moment be concerned about taking the easy days easier than what Daniels has in his book), and a much secondary emphasis on wonderful mile-repeat workouts (though the speed work certainly has its place). Cheers to you running 226 this Fall and then faster beyond that.
good luck
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 4:22PM - in reply to Letsrun Longtimer Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Nice post.

Can you elaborate on your first point? Were you referring to the Daniels workout of 2m E +4m T + 10m E + 4m T + 2m E?
Was your point that one shouldn't hammer the T segments at the expense of the 10m E?
Gambling man
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 5/31/2008 5:01PM - in reply to Letsrun Longtimer Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
10 bucks says Letsrun Longtimer is Hadd
sleepyRUNNER
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 6/1/2008 1:26AM - in reply to good luck Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

good luck wrote:

Nice post.

Can you elaborate on your first point? Were you referring to the Daniels workout of 2m E +4m T + 10m E + 4m T + 2m E?
Was your point that one shouldn't hammer the T segments at the expense of the 10m E?


I think this is one of the workouts that's being referred to - also, probably the following:
2E + 4T + 10E + 2x2T w/ 2 min rest + 2E

I would also think this concept needs to be carried over to the Q1 workouts in weeks 7, 10, 13, and 19 - workouts that alternate a lot of M-pace with 1 mi I-pace intervals.

Everybody - thanks so much for all of this - honestly, it's so refreshing to even just compare/talk about quality running. In college you can take for granted being around a group of quality runners that also have running-smarts (well, some guys) for hours everyday. Now, being a post collegiate, I'm limited to the classic water cooler conversations where somebody's 5:30:00 marathon is regarded higher then my sub 1:10:00 half marathon ... don't even get me started.

But all marathoners have my respect - who knows, i could be crawling to a 5:30:00 - but this advise is very encouraging to me. I did my first half only last fall and I loved bumping up to it - less feelings of "I'm running my balls off and I just started" like that of the mile, 5k, even 10k - I hope this bump is a similar experience.
Hadd
Hadd's bio
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 6/1/2008 1:54AM - in reply to Gambling man Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Gambling man wrote:

10 bucks says Letsrun Longtimer is Hadd


You'd be wrong, mate. That was an excellent post, but it wasn't one of mine. Credit where it's due.
luv2runontario
RE: FIRST MARATHON - advise for sub 2:30 6/1/2008 6:00AM - in reply to sleepyRUNNER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
This is my first time writing on Let's Run because it is the first time were I thought I could actually provide some meaningful help. I have a copy of Jack Daniels' Running Formula book as well and I am not as fast as you but I think my experience can be applied here. I was going to train to "Marathon Training Plan A". In that plan there is some speed work. However, my 10k race time predicted that I could run faster then my goal time. It was suggested by Jack for me to increase my weakly mileage, not by a lot, but increase it and do Marathon pace during a long run of 2 hours or more. Eventually when that pace felt good and I was recovering well from the long runs I added some Threshold pace runs. I improved on my first marathon time by 18 minutes and my last half was only 2 minutes slower than my first by following his advise. I completely bonked my first marathon at 30k.
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