| MPR |
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Both workouts (10 tempo and 4 x 3 mile) would be have a similar effect. I generally do not recommend the same workouts 2 weeks in a row, so would not have my runners doing the 10m E + 10m MP in back to back weeks. While the 5 workouts I listed I consider to be key staple workouts for the marathon they are not all the marathon workouts I think are effective, but many of the other workouts depend on the individual runner. |
| MPR |
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L.C. Thanks for the kind words. 1) One workout I do like and have some of my runners do is a 15-16 miles (usually use 25k) simulation run at goal marathon pace about 4-5 weeks before the goal marathon. This is almost exactly what the Hansons runners do. It builds great confidence in the runners and helps them build good pace judgement for early in the marathon. I generally would not do this workout more than once in a cycle. 2) Another one of the workouts I use on occasion would be a 20-21 mile run at 90 to 95% of marathon pace. Canova mentions this as a favorite run of some of his marathon runners as well. This would be similar to what you describe Nate doing as well. 3) Two per week is the general schedule but there are of course exceptions. The Hansons have had good results using a 3 day cycle which give runners 2 workouts each 6 days. Canova uses a similar 3 day schedule often as well. I find a 2 workout in a 7 day week fit most serious marathon runners with an outside job pretty optinmally. Some (very few) younger (20's)runners with little outside time commitments may be able to handle as much as 3 workouts per week and maintain the approrpiate mileage and intensity for marathon running. Please note that in marathon training the long runs are of considerable distance and/or intensity that I consider them a significant workout. As I mentioned earlier, I have very few hard and fast rules because each runner is slightly different. |
| rambled postings |
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Who is MPR and who does he train? |
| the dude with the funny hat |
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All very good stuff MPR. I've always found marathon workouts to be a very complicated concept but you are putting it into terms that even I can understand. Two questions: 1) Do you see a place for under-distance racing during the sharpening period? I was thinking of racing a hard half-marathon (ie, :10-:15/mile faster than marathon goal pace) 3 weeks before my October marathon. My rationale is: a) I am living/working at altitude until 3 weeks before the marathon, so if I want to run an under-distance race at sea level and recover in time that's my only window to do it b) racing at any distance gives me a mental and maybe also physical sharpness that I can never get from just training. it would be good to have some of that before the marathon c) my half-marathon PR is rather soft, so this might be a chance to improve it (probably not attain my full potential in the half, but at least improve), which will give me more confidence in my marathoning ability. 2) Do you think peak weekly mileage should be attained at the end of the base phase, at the end of the sharpening phase, or some other time? I've noticed that most 5k/10k programs advocate peak mileage during the base phase, which is then reduced in favor of incorporating more quality during the sharpening phase. Lots of marathon programs, however, including the Hansons', seem to advocate high mileage during the base phase (110-125 for the top guys) but then mega-high mileage during the sharpening phase (building to 160 for Sell and 130-140 for some of his teammates). |
| haha, YO |
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A 70 mile week doesn't make sense for marathon training.[/quote] 95% of the people running a marathon probably run less than that.[/quote] Yeah, but I'm only concerned about the good ones. |
| rambled postings |
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Does anyone know? I just happened on this thread and it looks a lot like those of a guy who kept posting messages to himself a few years ago. Wondering if it's the same one with new nickname. |
| mile repeat agony |
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Thanks MPR. Certainly some awesome training ideas based on sound ideas. Curious about the mile repeats at only 110% of MRP? I thought the general rule of thumb was "around" a minute faster than MRP. Why do you recommend increasing the reps or shortening the recovery? Thanks again. |
| the dude with the funny hat |
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a minute faster than marathon pace? Dude that is insanely fast for mile reps. You think Brian Sell is out there doing sub-4:00 mile reps? Is Geb doing sub-3:45s? MPR has got it going on with these percentages. They make perfect sense. His 110% rule works out to about :30 faster than marathon pace. That's perfect. At that pace you are working your aerobic capacity, but not absolutely blasting it out of the water. I am aiming for 5:30 marathon pace now and eventually 5:18s. I definitely don't envision myself EVER needing to run mile reps faster than 4:50-5:00 to hit those goals. |
| mile repeat agony |
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even the calculation with the mcmillan calculations (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/cgi-bin/calculations.pl)have mile repeats around a minute faster even at a 5:30 pace (2:24 marathon). wild stuff. |
| the dude with the funny hat |
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If you put a 2:24 marathon into McMillan's tables he says: 4:43.6 to 4:54.1 for 1600m intervals as part of speed workouts 4:54 to 5:00 for 1600m cruise intervals These tables are for general training, for all events, not just the marathon. McMillan has information on there for anybody who is at a 2:24 marathon level (a 30:41 10k runner, a 14:46 5k runner, a 1:55 800 runner, etc.). But if somebody is training for the marathon, the cruise intervals are more relevant than speed workouts. If a 2:24 marathoner took a break from marathoning to run 2 months of outdoor track races, he might well do mile repeats at 4:43-4:54 in preparation for racing 5k/10k, even if he had to take longer recoveries and limit the number of reps. But during preparations for a marathon, he's gonna be much more concerned with rocking the cruise intervals in the high 4:50s (or even low 5:00s), but maybe getting to where he can do say 6-10 of them with 1:00 recoveries. That's my interpretation of the McMillan tables. What I like about MPR is that he's managed to write stuff that agrees with the best ideas in Daniels, Lydiard, Hanson, McMillan, and more. It's a nice synthesis. I want to know what MPR thinks are the most important types of supplemental training. My vote is, in order: 1) pure speed (buildup strides ending with 30m at 90-100% of maximal sprint capacity), 2) plyometrics, and 3) high-intensity/low-rep weight training. |
| MPR |
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Speed work for the marathon is an interesting area. There seems to be two different main schools of thought on this (with many off shoots). One camp is the the traditional VO2 Max camp in which speed work, when its done is done at traditional VO2 Max pace of 3k to 5k race pace. Since the emphasis is less on true speed and more on quanity, many runners in this camp go to the slower end (i.e 5k) in order to add in a few extra reps while rests are long, usually 50% of the distance run. A typical workout in the camp may be 7-8 x 1000 @ 5k pace w 400 jog. The second camp uses speed work that is roughly 10% faster than goal marathon pace, which is roughly 10k race pace. With the slower pace, the rest is reduced to often 20-25% of distance run. A typical workout in this camp may be 6-7 x 1 mile w 400 jog. There are many successful coaches in both camps. Daniels for one would fall into the first camp while Canova (largely, although he goes to 112% on occassion) and the Hansons would fall into the second camp. I have experimented with both forms and have had the best success with the second camp. 10% faster than race pace I have found gives me the desired (aerobic capacity / speed efficiecny) effect I am looking for while being slow enough to do the higher quantity desired in marathon training. I also find that runners are more prone to injury when trying to do the faster style of speed work (3k-5k pace) while doing the high mileage marathon training requires. There is certainly no right or wrong answer on this front but rather what works best for you and enhances your chances of showing up on the starting line healthy and ready to race your best. |
| MPR |
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TDWTFH, For marathon training supplimentary work takes 2 focuses: general strength training in order to maintain muscle balance to reduce injury and core training to build the strength necessary to maintain good form/body position through out the race. Generally I will have my atheletes do a strength circuit twice a week and a brief core routine four other days per week. We do neither on the day of our longest workout (i.e 24 miler, 20-10/10). Our strength circuit routine is very much focused on higher rep calesthenics and utilizing natural movements (including plyometrics) that also strengthen complimenraty muscles. We add light weights, as necessary, to hit the desired effect. Lower body exercises include Squats, forward and lateral lunges, calf raises, box step-ups, high knees form drills, butt kicks, skips, etc. Upper body exercises include, push-ups, dipps, pull-ups, and various core exercises. |
| MPR |
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I have not posted on this thread under any other name but MPR and only then to answer question directed my way. Thanks. |
| the dude with the funny hat |
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Thanks! Not to be a pain, but did you see my other two questions: where do under-distance races fit into a marathon buildup, and do you hit peak mileage at the end of the base phase or at the end of the sharpening phase? All good stuff man, keep it coming. |
| MPR |
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How under-distances races fits into a schedule depends largely on the individual. I know some runners who don't like to race at all in their marathon prep but rather seclude themsleves and come out ready to race come marathon day. Others like to race regularly as a guage of fitness and to stay mentally race sharp. I suggest a middle ground. Do not race more often than once every 6 weeks at distances between 15k and half marathon. This does not include using a race as a workout. 8k's to Half marathons can be used as workouts by doing them at workout level paces. But I do not suggest true racing efforts very often in marathon preparations. Like I said no more than once every 6 weeks at most. One instance where that can be advisable and helpful, is when you have a prolonged build-up for marathon and so can schedule shorter efforts (such as a half marathon) at interim points in order to gauge fitness level and progress. An example may be if you have 14 weeks of sharpeneing planned, it may make sense to race a half marathon after 2 weeks and again at 8 or 9 weeks in order to get some feedback on how training is going and where you are at. As far as peak mileage goes: If a runner has a peak mileage goal of 90 miles per week, they would reach 90 miles at the end of their base phase and then hold between 80 and 90 miles during their sharpening phase. MPR |
| Mr. Ray |
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Interesting post. I'm happy with 4 of your key workouts, and don't doubt the 5th, but I have some questions regarding the recovery from a 24-mile run. How slow can your marathon target time be, that a 24-mile run still makes sense? Or does it make sense for everyone, including 6 hour runners? Even if your target is a modest 3 hours, by my calculations, the 24 mile run at 80% can take up to 3.5 hours, which seems like a long workout. How many weeks between 24-mile runs? When would you target the last 24-mile run before the marathon? Thanks for any insight. |
| MPR |
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Mr. Ray, This is another topic of some disagreement in marathon circles which reputable coaches falling on different sides. The workout and advice I have given on this thread are for those who wish to race a marathon and not merely complete one. I would suspect that the main goal for a 5 or 6 hour marathon is mainly to finish. A commendable goal but not one I am experienced at coaching to. I have no expereince coaching runners who run a marathon in slower than 4:00, so will defer to people with such experience as to how they suggest long runs be structured For those who wish to RACE a marathon I think it is important to periodically run for a period of time which is equal to the time you will be racing and on occassion for distance approaching race distance. The frequency this can be done depends largely on the volume of weekly mileage a runner does. For someone running 120 miles per week, they can accomplish this regularly, if not even weekly. But for someone doing 80 miles per week it may be advisable only every 3rd or 4th week. A 24 mile long run is only 20% of a 120 mile week while it is 30% of a 80 mile week. Understandably it is going to be more taxing for the 80 mile a week runner and thus require more recovery. Please note = I think the chances for injury increase greatly when long runs exceed 30% of weekly mileage for most runners. But the race distance is the same for everyone - 26.2 miles. And in order to prepare the body to race for that distance there are certain distances that need to be covered in training to adequately prepare oneself for RACING that far. As for how close to the marathon one of these longer runs should be done. Again this depends somewhat on weekly mileage. I do not have any of my runners do this length of a run any closer than 3weeks out from a race and for many its 4 (or even 5) weeks. One other note about long runs. The total miles is not always the determining fcator as to how hard a long run is. I find a 24 mile easy paced long run is actually easier physicaly than the 20 mile run with last 10 miles at marathon race pace. I suspect that the faster you race a marathon the more so this becomes. 80% of marathon race pace should be a very easy pace for most all sub 4 hour runners. Hope this helps. |
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80% of MP is way too slow for, say, a 3 hour guy - it amounts to 8:30 pace! I think the 80% rule applies only to elite guys. |
| Mr. Ray |
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Thanks, that was very helpful and puts it in better perspective for me. All my marathons have been sub-4:00, but it might be stretching it to say I raced them. |
| MPR |
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Actually I use 80-85% for that purpose (see earlier in the thread). For a 3 hr + guy its closer to 85% and for a elite guy its 80%. |