If Tim Noakes "Central Governor" Model is Correct AND there is NO Lactate Threshold, HOW should this effect my train

Hmmmm wrote:

You didn't awryer my question though.

Hmmm,

I thought they were rhetorical questions.

Yes, I have run on a track. Yes, I know what a training session is. No, I don't spend all my time behind a keyboard or in a lab.

I've been running for 26 years and have been interested in and studying physiology for almost as long.

Sorry that was answer . His feelings. Very accurate and detailed feedback tool. Not easy to define scientifically though. After his ankle op the initial limiting factor was ankle range of motion and calf strength. He would say my ankle is jamming right here. I would mobilise and gain a release (a crack) and he could continue. He would also say my calf has gone (out of energy or strength or?)

Then i would massage the calf and he would have a day off anything strenuous. Rich. 26 years of running and yet you provide no applied knowledge. Come on man it must be in you somewhere. Have a go.

After a few months of jogging, strengthening exercises and plenty of rehab from me, the ankle and calf are on longer the limiting factors. He now runs into other limitations such as his aerobic capacity. This will improve with ease and them he will run into problems of speed.

Hmmmm wrote:

Hey know. I coach. One guy coach has a pb of 145.57. He also runs 47.00 and 345odd. Today he ran for 45 mins. The first 30 was at 145bpm and the last 15 at 160bpm. At the moment his threshold is close to 160. After 15 mins of that he had to stop as he was being overloaded. He is returning from injury. Interesting hey. He is 28.

what pace does his threshold put him at? any idea?

So since no one will answer the original question I will. It doesn't look like it does.

Know your terminology wrote:

Lactate threshold is a measurement. It's the point on a curve of measured blood lactate levels against either heart rate or pace. Of course it exists.

Lactate threshold is a very vague concept not a fixed value.

I think several have tried, it's just that some of the answers have gotten lost in the noise. From my post above,

" Performance at efforts longer than 10 min are clearly impacted by lactate threshold, and for durations as long as the marathon, primarily impacted by the lactate threshold. So, don't take what Noakes has been writing to mean you shouldn't think about that type of training. That being said, the LT is not the only variable in the physiological side of the equation, and certainly there are other equations in the non-linear dynamics of performance."

So, if your tempo runs are intended to increase LT, then the simple answer to your initial question is "no". Of course, on the other hand, training and the resulting physiological adaptations are "complex systems" to use a term of which Noakes has become quite fond of late, so, those runs should probably not be used to the exclusion of other training modalities. What modalities, and in what proportion, are the variables in the equation that make or break good performances.

Steve

Steve McGregor wrote:

lactate accumulation is associated (so, guilt by association applies here) with the workload that cannot be sustained for a prolonged period of time.

Steve

What does that mean Steve? how long is a prolonged period of time? one minute, five? fifteen, an hour?

Lactate accumulation is associated with running fast just as much as much as running fast is associated with fatigue.

So lactate accumulation is associated with helping you run fast, not hindering you.

Slacker wrote:

So since no one will answer the original question I will. It doesn't look like it does.

It does. Here's some of Ed Coyle's research on it:

(5)%20Farrell,%20Wilmore,%20Coyle,%20Billing,%20Costill,%20Plasma%20lactate%20accumulation%20and%20distance%20running%20performance,%20Med%20&%20Sci%20in%20Sports,%20Vol%2011,%20No%204,%20pp%20338-344,%201979.pdf

6packjack wrote:

This may be a dumb question, but if Noakes is correct that there is NO LT then why am I doing tempo runs?

Because tempo runs help you practice race pace

6packjack wrote:

Are tempo runs, as Jack Daniels defines them, at odds with Noakes "central governor" model?

No, although Noakes doesn't agree with JD's physiological definitions, he is very much an admirer of his research and his training ideas.

6packjack wrote:

Do Noakes ideas, assuming they are correct, mean I should not train as Jack Daniels suggests?

No, you should continue to follow Jack's advice, since his definitions are guidelines for pace judgement. Noakes's physiological explanations are a separate issue that make interesting discussion between runs.

That's the $64k question isn't it? Well if you subscribe to the concept of the MLSS, then longer than 45-60 min. If you subscribe to the CV concept, then about the same. So, I'd say "around an hour". How's that for nebulous?;)

How do you define running "fast"? If you're talking a 2:05 marathon, no lactate accumulation there.

I never said lactate accumulation per se hindered you, just the opposite. BUT, the point at which lactate starts to accumulate, regardless of how you define it, starts a clock that when it runs out, you will slow down substantially. OTOH, if you raise the point (speed) at which lactate accumulates, you will run faster at almost any distance longer than 1500 m, and maybe 1500 m.

Steve

Steve, MLSS is also a very vague concept, you might run 10 minutes at 10mmol or 20 minutes at 8 mmol or 60 mins at 4 mmol etc etc.

Maximal Lactate Steady State is bound to vary considerably depending on glycogen availability (amount of stored glycogen) arousal levels (nervous stimulation) fatigue levels, training status.

In other words lactate threshold is a very grey area, not black and white.

Steve, MLSS is also a very vague concept, you might run 10 minutes at 10mmol or 20 minutes at 8 mmol or 60 mins at 4 mmol etc etc.

Maximal Lactate Steady State is bound to vary considerably depending on glycogen availability (amount of stored glycogen) arousal levels (nervous stimulation) fatigue levels, training status.

In other words lactate threshold is a very grey area, not black and white.

wellnow wrote:

Maximal Lactate Steady State is bound to vary considerably depending on glycogen availability (amount of stored glycogen) arousal levels (nervous stimulation) fatigue levels, training status.

Factors that affect the value but not the concept.

Hmmmm wrote:

So lactate accumulation does exist. We can measure it because it is there to measure. Can we measure H+ ions? I assume not but am happy to be proved wrong. Is the relationship between the H+ and lactate linear?

No, the relationship between H+ and lactate is non linear.

lactate production consumes Hydrogen ions, but at high intensity, H+ productions outstrips lactate production.

That is why you can accumulate a lot of lactate in the first three laps of a mile race without feeling pain from H+ but on the last lap the pain really kicks in.

wellnow wrote:

Lactate threshold is a very vague concept not a fixed value.

Please stop mis-using the word "concept".

Lactate threshold is a very specific concept. The actual value/pace at which one "reaches" lactate threshold might not be so clearly defined. One may argue all day over whether there is a specific point, a range, and what influences it. But the concept is quite specific.

Hmmmm wrote:

So lactate accumulation does exist. We can measure it because it is there to measure. Can we measure H+ ions? I assume not but am happy to be proved wrong. Is the relationship between the H+ and lactate linear?

No, the relationship between H+ and lactate is non linear.

lactate production consumes Hydrogen ions, but at high intensity, H+ productions outstrips lactate production.

That is why you can accumulate a lot of lactate in the first three laps of a mile race without feeling pain from H+ but on the last lap the pain really kicks in.

I never said anything about the lactate *value*. I simply said the MLSS, which corresponds to a pace/power at which lactate no longer accumulates. The value could be 2, 5 or 100, it doesn't matter. Interestingly, the *value* will vary quite a bit interindividually, but will be very consistent intraindividually. I also mentioned the CV, which has no lactate measurement component whatsoever, also interestingly though (at least to me), they are all related. In fact, if you measure each under consistent conditions, they will move in lock step. In other words, as LT increases, so too does MLSS or MSS if you like (as it will remove the actual lactate value you are hung up on), or CV. They are all influenced by the same factors, those which influence lactate accumulation. At a pace power below which lactate accumulates, you can run for quite some time, above it, you are limited to less than an hour or so depending how far above it your are, and what definition you are using. I'm personally more enamored with the MLSS/MSS concept since it's more performance based.

I agree to a certain extent with Richard though, that performance is the best predictor of performance. That being said, the LT still exists, and it is likely the best non-performance predictor of performance (of what value that may be is up to each to decide for himself) for endurance sports, and it certainly gives us insight into what is going on that is influencing performance.