Malmo what's the best way to structure a 100 and 110 mile weeks?

Terrence certainly wasn't the first CA kid who had troubles adjusting to life in dreary Oregon. Fatigue is a common complaint, as is depression. Many there feel notably better when summer finally comes around and they get to feel the sun again. Getting on a regular sleep/wake schedule probably helped the kid too.

Turning a HS 2 mile time into 10k pace is certainly solid improvement, but not uncommon. More than the mileage emphasis (which I generally disagree with) or the doubles approach (which I generally agree with), the real lesson of Terrence's breakthrough is that much US talent is untapped, and that a little support and encouragement can go a long way.

December seems a strange time to run a 10k track PR. Where'd he run that, Australia or something?

Malmo thanks for this awesome thread. Quick question. Are doubles ok to do if you can only do them at 7am and 7pm b/c of work? In college our coaches stressed getting a your second run in 4 hrs or so after the first. Would the body break down running every 12 hrs?

Morning run ? wrote:

Malmo thanks for this awesome thread. Quick question. Are doubles ok to do if you can only do them at 7am and 7pm b/c of work? In college our coaches stressed getting a your second run in 4 hrs or so after the first. Would the body break down running every 12 hrs?

Come on dude, use your brain. Have you read any of this thread? The underlying theme is stop overthinking things, this is not rocket science. Just get out there and do it, 12 hours is perfect. So is 10 hours, 8 hours, 6 hours, 11 hours, or 7 1/2 hours.

don't get me wrong I am a believer of doubles but surely there is point where one should be doing only singles then when they want to increase the volume add in doubles

the question is at what volume is singles better than doubles and doubles better than singles, obviously an individual thing but any ideas to a ball park figure, I know malmo advocates doubles from any volume but if someone is running 8 miles / day would it not be of more benefit to run a single 8 miles as to two runs of 4 miles

my belief is get to a volume where you can handle singles and then when want more volume add doubles, any thoughts

another point on this topic is, looking at the logs of the top runners (Ritz, Sell, Carney, other Hansons)

- on athleticore.com

- marathonperformance.com (message board has training weeks from Ritz and Carney

I noticed that there main run each day is obviously the highest volume and the second run is shorter in duration so to me it lends to my theory of doubles just adding to volume

Malmo is (of course) right about the morning runs of 3-5 miles 5 days a week. As a high school junior I stumbled upon 3 milers on MWF and 5 milers on TTh as a way to improve. As an ok runner I was able to win the two-mile state championship against what I thought were better runners simply by adding more miles. Any high schooler looking to improve need only follow that one simple piece of advice.

I also followed Malmo to PSU where I had the time of my life running with the best all-AMERICAN teams of the late 70'S. I even ran with Malmo on several occasions and married one of his roommmates's sisters. (Bet you don't know who I am, do you Malmo?) This was when Malmo was better at video games than running, no small feat.

runner39 wrote:

my belief is get to a volume where you can handle singles and then when want more volume add doubles, any thoughts

True story. I use to think that and when I was in college told a younger guy on the team that he should work on getting his mileage up on singles before adding a second daily run. Thankful he did not listen to me. He ran 5 in the morning, then 5 in the evening 6 days a week, then a 10 miler on Sunday. 70 miles a week. He did this all summer. Came back and was dramatically improved, and was able to increase his volume with little trouble.

Running makes you better at running. Taking the first step to run more (adding a second daily run) will allow you to run even more. You have to start somewhere.

I would have figured you for a clothes pin and a baseball card kind of guy

malmo wrote:

malmo wrote:

I can afford to buy my own bike, thank you. I'm two to three steps ahead of you guys. I'm partial to this one with accessories: a pannier, I mean beerier, and holsters for shotguns and shells, and speakers blaring Walkürenritt

...and this must have bike accessory.

http://tinyurl.com/368n7o

runner39 wrote: if someone is running 8 miles / day would it not be of more benefit to run a single 8 miles as to two runs of 4 miles

my belief is get to a volume where you can handle singles and then when want more volume add doubles, any thoughts

I know you mean it as a ridiculous example, but I wouldn't necessarily bet against the guy running 4+4 as long as he's getting in some longer runs sprinkled in there too, to go with his 12-14 runs per week, over the 8/day guy.

But even more than that, you can build volume a lot quicker, safer, and easier on two runs a day vs. one. That alone makes the "build your singles until you hit XX miles and can't take any more" seem silly to me.

And why wait until you're exhausting yourself on a longish run every day, and *then* add a second run? It all seems like a recipe for disaster.

Maybe you've tried it both ways, though, and can share your experience?

I've stuck to something pretty similar this winter, and have found it to work really well. Probably the only difference is that I tend to front-load my weeks a bit in case I am racing on a Saturday.

I'll usually structure a week like this:

M - am: 6 miles easy, pm: track workout (10-11 miles)

Tu - am: 5 miles easy, pm: 12 miles (faster than am pace)

W - am: 6 miles easy, pm: track workout (10-11 miles)

Th - am: 5 miles easy, pm: 10-12 miles (shorter if I am racing on the weekend)

F - 5 miles easy

S - am: 4-5 miles, pm: race or tempo run

Su: 16-18 miles

Works out to 100-105 miles for the week.

I found that I had huge improvements when I started running higher mileage. I went from being a 19-20 minute 5k runner (I am female) to a 17 flat runner after putting in tons of mileage last year.

Malmo, I was taking a look at your 1985 training log, and was wondering about week 25, where you ran 178 miles. What are the benefits of doing a big week like this? I've read a bit about triathletes who do "crash weeks" with tons of training, followed by a light week to recover. Is this the same idea?

I copied the logs from the web link above. I honestly have been a singles guys and just looking at ritz, carney, malmo and all the other logs I see something pretty typical, mostly doubles and not as much singles. Honestly this thread has really opened my eyes and has made me think maybe doubles are the best route. Just some basic reasoning is that singles you just beat yourself ragged to get in high mileage and if something goes wrong and you have you dont feel good and only go like 4 or 5 miles then you lose out on like 10 miles of running that day and your training will suffer in the long run.

But doubles look like you can be more consistant and get in large amounts of mileage and not completely destroy you body! To me it just looks like its way easier on your body buy you get the benefit from doing high mileage and it looks like you can increase mileage from week to week much faster than just doing it in singles. And to be honest there are some days that I have 13 miles for the goal of the day and I just dont feel like going out and running for 90 minutes when its cold snowy/rainy or whatever. So I end up just running as much as I can and I dont run as much as I would like to for the week and typically come up very short of where I would like to be and where I believe I would benefit the most.

Another thing that sticks out from ritz\\\'s logs is that he is training completely different from how he trained at colorado! I know wetmore emphasizes singles because of school schedules but it looks like ritz went from all singles in college to all doubles and he did have success in college but was always injured because of the heavy training load. Plus now it seems like he is way more consitant in his races and winning and placing high in some big races.

To end it here I will be doing doubles as much as I can from now on. Thanks malmo you have inspired me!!

April 8-14 2007

Before this week Dathan had been in Portland Oregon for about a 5 weeks training on the anti- gravity treadmill at Nike.(and Salazar\\\'s garage) He was putting in 130 mile weeks using a mix of threshold and long intervals. He had put in his best winter ever and was extremely fit prior to the injury. Before the winter he had put in a huge base for him in getting ready for his debut Marathon. It is important to know the condition of the athlete prior to the training you see.

S. 1:20min. easy

M. 40min. easy 2-3 easy strides 40min. easy

T. 60min. progression( 20e 20m 20 fast) 10min. easy 30min. easy

W. 1:10min. 1/2 mod.

T. 40min easy 4-5 strides 40min. easy

F. 20min. w.u. fartlek 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1- rec. mod. same 10min. w.d. 30min. easy

S. 45min. jog

April 15- 21

S. 1:30min. Magnolia w last 15min. mod.

M. 45min. easy 45min. easy

T. 20min. w.u. 3 x 10min./ 183/4:00mod. 164 42min. continous. 20min. w.d. 40min. easy

W. 1:20min. last 40min. mod.

T. 50min. easy 50min. easy

F. 20min. w.u. 10 x 1km/ 60sec. threshold to current 10km Harper lake 20min. w.d. 40min. jog

S. 45min. jog

April 22- 28

S. 1:40min. w last 20min. fast up Left Hand Canyon

M. 50min. easy 50min. easy

T. 20min. w.u. 3 x 15min. progressions/60sec jog/float 2-3-4 mmol ( 10 below-5 below-Threshold) 10min. w.d. 35min. easy

W. 1:30min. easy-mod.

T. 50min. easy+ 2-3 s.h.( first time doing short hills since injury) 50min. easy

F. 20min. w.u. Fartlek Harper lake 5 x 6min. threshold to current 10km 3:00 rec. 20min. w.d. 40min. easy

S. off

April 29- May 6

S. 1:40 w fast 20min. progression

M. 50min. easy+8x s.h. 50min. easy

T. 20min. w.u. 2 x 10 x400m\\\'s 66/65 60sec. rec. 4:00 mn. sets 20min. w.d. 40min.jog

W. 1:30min. easy-mod.

T. 60min. easy 45min. easy

F. 20min. w.u. 3 x10min./183 w rec. 4:00 min. mod 164 42min. continous 20min. w.d.

S. off

May 7-12

S. 1:45 w last 30-40 mod. 5:40

M. 50min. easy+10xs.h. 50min. easy

T. 20min. w.u. 5 x 1600m 4:30-4:16 3:00 rec. 20min. w.d 40min. jog

W. 1:30min. easy 1/2 mod.

T. 60min. easy 35min. easy

F. 20min. w.u. 2 x15min./60 sec. float+ 10 x200m\\\'s 30/30 20min. w.d.

S. 45min. jog

May 13- 19

S. 1:30min. w last 5miles 4:55 amazon trail

M. 50min. easy+6 xs.h. 50min. easy

T. 20min. w.u. 2 x 6lap progression+ 8x200m\\\'s (32) 6laps 68-68-66-66-60-61 20min. w.d. 40min. jog

W. 1:20min. easy

T. 50min. easy

F. 40min.+strides

S. 20min. w.u.strides+1-2 longer strides due to uphill start Race 10km race 28:08 Central Park course record 20min. w.d.

May 20- 26

Day after healthy kidney this cycle begins. Fitness( threshold 10k) was good so we skip track meet next week and try to develop speed endurance.

S. 60min. jog

M. 50minjog 50min.jog

T. 40min. jog 20min. w.u. 2 x 10min. h.r. 183 amazon trail+ 10 x200m/29 sec./30ec. rec. 20min. w.d.

W. 1:30min. easy to moderate progression

T. 50min. easy 40min. easy

F. Specific endurance development(recruiting fibers w lactate) 20min. w.u. 2 sets of 5 x 1000m avg 2:42 90sec. rec. jog to hill 6x short hill full recovery 20min. w.d.

S. 45min. jog

May 27-June 4

S. 1:45min. w last 45min. moderate 5:30-20

M. 45min. easy 45min. easy

T. 20min. w.u. 2 x 6lap progression+ 8 x 200m\\\'s

( stole this from Nick Bideau who i think is a fantastic coach) paces 67-67-65-65-61-61 ( essentially we are trying to develop speed when we are tired= speed endurance) 200m\\\'s 31 100jog 20min. w.d. 40min. jog

W. 1:30min. steady 6:00-5:50

T. 60min. easy+10xs.h. 35min. easy

F. 20min. w.u. 3 x 10min/ 183/ 4:00 mod 164 +10 x100m\\\'s fast 20min. w.d.

S. 45min. jog

June 5- 11

S. 1:30min. last 5miles 4:55

M. 50min. easy 50min. easy+ 5 x s.h.

T. 20min. w.u. 2 x 2000m 66/64 3:00 rec. jog+ 8 x 400m\\\'s 60/ 60sec. jog 20min. w.d. 40 min.jog

W. 60min. easy

T. 40min. jog 20min. w.u. 10 x200m\\\'s 28 (last one 26.9) 200jog fastest 200m since college 20min. w.d.

F. 40min. jog 40min. jog

S. 40min. jog+strides

S. 20min. w.u. Prefontaine 2mile 8:11(4:05. 4:05.) 30min w.d

September 30- October 6

Here is a snapshot of Dathan’s training log leading up to the Olympic Marathon Trials. After this week we knew he had a good chance.

September 30th – October 6th 2007

SUN AM 60 min. easy PM 60 min. easy

MON AM 2 mile warm up, 18 mile progression run 5:15-4:48, 5:02 average

TUES AM 45 min. jog PM 45 min. jog

WED AM 50 min. easy PM 50 min. easy

THURS AM 60 min. easy PM 40 min. easy

FRI AM On Pre’s Trail 30 min. w/u, On Bike Path 22 min. marathon pace (5:00), 3 min. jog followed by 18 min. marathon pace ( 4:56), 3 min. jog followed by 15 min. marathon pace (4:50 pace), 3 min. jog followed by 12 min. at threshold pace (4:42), 3 min. jog, followed by 6 min. threshold + (4:36 pace), 10 min. easy. Undulating terrain.

SAT AM 40 min. easy PM 40 min. easy

Weekly total roughly 114

Sometimes the benefit of doing a really high mileage week, like Malmo's 178, is mental more than physical. Knowing that you did something like that & survived opens your mind to bigger and better things. It makes the 120 mile week look easy, and the simple truth is believing in your training is the most important thing of all.

double your pleasure wrote:

Maybe you've tried it both ways, though, and can share your experience?

I have actually tried it both ways, and focusing on singles works better for me. When I run 120 miles or so for a couple of weeks with 5-6 doubles per week, my legs never really feel fresh, whereas when I reduce it to 2 doubles (and hence longer runs), they feel much better on average.

I _do_ run slower on my easy runs, but it has no discernible impact on the speed I can do workouts or races at.

I vaguely remember hearing once that they tried to test this at Athletics West (maybe with Plasencia?) and found that in terms of training effect there was no noticeable difference.

That means it comes down to:

- whether your body can comfortably handle frequent longer

runs (mine can, but you have to find that out for yourself)

- whether your schedule permits more frequent doubles

- which program your legs feel better on

- whether it helps you psychologically to be able to run a bit quicker on your easy runs

None of that, I would argue, can be determined by anyone but you. Certainly not by anyone giving advice over the internet :-)

Maurits

dsrunner wrote:

Turning a HS 2 mile time into 10k pace is certainly solid improvement, but not uncommon.

Huh? Terrence's situation was uncommon, and completely unique.

If you look at that US Junior list you'll note that every single one of them had brilliant freshman years in college EXCEPT Terrance, and all of them except Green were much better HS runners than Terrance was.

Terrence's best running was as a high school junior. That was changed forever within a few months by making the decision to get serious. All of yo can make that decision as well.

28:09.6+ Gerry Lindgren (WaSt)........6/27/65 (4:01, 8:40, 13:44)

28:15.5 Galen Rupp (OR) (4:01, 8:03(3k), 13:37)

28:32.7 Rudy Chapa (InHS)............4/24/76 (4:05, 8:51

28:28.8+ Garry Bjorklund (Mn).........6/27/70 (4:05

28:49.6+ Doug Brown (Tn)..............6/18/71 (8:57)

28:54.30 Louis Luchini (Stan).........5/ 5/00 (9:04)

28:55.0 Eric Hulst (CaHS)............3/28/76 (4:09, 8:44

28:57.1 Harry Green (Tx).............4/24/86

28:57.79 Terrence Mahon (Or).........12/ 9/89 (9:13.9)

Green was 7th NCAA 10k as a Freshman

runner39 wrote:

don't get me wrong I am a believer of doubles but surely there is point where one should be doing only singles then when they want to increase the volume add in doubles

Runners around the world do doubles. You should too. Of the hundreds of athletes that I've known and trained with, I don't know any who ran singles.

take the time to analyze Dathan's logs, in track training 3-4 doubles (est. 15-22 miles/week of total weekly volume), in the marathon week example 5 doubles (est. 36-40 miles of the 114 miles) leaving roughly 74 miles in singles, now this an elite athlete so lets work off percentages,

track training est. 90 miles per week

- say 20 miles in second runs (22% of weely volume)

marathon training est. 114 miles per week

- say 40 miles in second runs (35% of weekly volume)

so when more weely volume required use more doubles, makes sense

take a runner doing 70 miles per week in track training

- 22% is 16 miles, so roughly 54 in single runs

i.e.

M - am 7, pm 5

T - workout, 10 total

W - 10

T - am 5, pm 4

F - am 8 (workout), pm 4

S - 5

S - 12

malmo wrote:

runner39 wrote:

don't get me wrong I am a believer of doubles but surely there is point where one should be doing only singles then when they want to increase the volume add in doubles

Runners around the world do doubles. You should too. Of the hundreds of athletes that I've known and trained with, I don't know any who ran singles.

Malmo I agree, I wish I could but with job, family its very difficult to do and get the necessary rest, wouldn't you agree