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how acurate?
VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/19/2008 4:54PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
How acurate have you guys found the VO2 max test on the polar monitors to be? I have the polar RS200sd and it said that I have a VO2 max of 71 and it said my heart rate max is 191. How accurate do you think these numbers are?
luv2run
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/19/2008 5:22PM - in reply to how acurate? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Polar measures HR very well.

There is a difference in "peak" and "max".

The ability to predict VO2max is a little more dubious.
chrisbikeman
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/19/2008 7:41PM - in reply to how acurate? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I had two VO2 Max tests done in (two different ) Exercise Physiology Labs. One at the University of Rhode Island and One at the University of Massachusetts. The number I got from the Polar HR monitor was pretty close, but I am not sure how accurate or scientific it is...

Fall 2005 (URI)
Lab VO2 Max = 70
Polar VO2 Max = 71


Fall 2006 (UMASS)
Lab VO2 Max = 69
Polar VO2 Max = 71
what does that mean?
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/19/2008 8:42PM - in reply to chrisbikeman Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
How does knowing your VO2 max help someone? Does it help you plan workouts better?
AdamLocked
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/19/2008 11:34PM - in reply to what does that mean? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

what does that mean? wrote:

How does knowing your VO2 max help someone? Does it help you plan workouts better?


In a nutshell, yes.

Your V02 Max is usually relative to your race performance. There is a chart in the book, Daniel's Running Formula, that gives you this relative conversion. For example, having a V02 Max of 60 would mean your 5K race time would be 17:05 or something (I'm making that up). So that in turn helps you to know what training paces you should be running for your Long, Easy, Threshold, Repetition, and Interval workouts.
see thats what happens
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/19/2008 11:42PM - in reply to AdamLocked Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
So if I look at daniels book and his vdot thing then take what that guy got for his VO2 max test and that is the level he should theoretically be able to run at?
will
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 1:07AM - in reply to how acurate? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It's not that accurate. I inquired about the inner workings because I was curious as to what the algorithm was. They just told me it's proprietary and the ANN used was very complex. I saw tremendous variability in VO2 Max on a daily basis with the S210. Something in the order of 5-15 points. I don't think I gain or lose that much simply based on fatigue, blood volume, changes, etc...i.e., items indirectly measurable with a pulse and morphological set of data.
The Light
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 3:37AM - in reply to how acurate? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
A VO2max of 71 is pretty high. Are you a top-runner?

For me, the results of the Fitness Test (HRmax and VO2max) were quite accurate, compared to race result estimates. I think I'm lucky enough to fall in a normal range -- even the age based HRmax formula works well for me.

But like all Polar pseudo-measurements, it may work well for a large majority of the population, and may also fail for a significantly large number of people, for a variety of reasons.

The Fitness Test measures HR-variability and uses a formula to correlate the measurements to a corresponding HRmax-p (predicted HRmax) and OwnIndex (predicted VO2max). The formula was fine-tuned based on a small sample of study participants, so the applicability depends on how well each individual matches that group.

Besides individual HR variations, the Fitness Test is sensitive to a surprising number of external factors (it's amazing it can work at all!):
- Choosing the correct Activity Level
- Performing the test at different times of the day
- Eating within 3 hours before the test
- Unusually heavy physical effort the day or the day before the test
- Drinking coffee or any other stimulant
- Being disturbed while performing the test (e.g. a dog barking, the telephone ringing, a child disturbing you, coughing, etc.)

I'm not sure what "will" was complaining about -- there is plenty of information about the Fitness Test in Polar Help documentation and at the Polar website (no less than 29 links).

For example, here's a comprehensive summary of the Fitness Test, complete with further references to the studies and publications:
http://support.polar.fi/PKBSupport.nsf/ALLDOCS/42256C2B001E0F6A422569BA00413B7E?OpenDocument

And here's some guidelines how to avoid wrong results when performing the Fitness Test:
http://support.polar.fi/PKBSupport.nsf/ALLDOCS/42256C2B001E0F6A4225681F005F1667?OpenDocument

For complete info, go here:
http://support.polar.fi/PKBSupport.nsf/websearch?SearchView
and search for "OwnIndex" or "Fitness Test".

Regards,


how acurate? wrote:

How acurate have you guys found the VO2 max test on the polar monitors to be? I have the polar RS200sd and it said that I have a VO2 max of 71 and it said my heart rate max is 191. How accurate do you think these numbers are?
herche
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 4:11AM - in reply to luv2run Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

luv2run wrote:

Polar measures HR very well.

There is a difference in "peak" and "max".

The ability to predict VO2max is a little more dubious.


just be sure if its a realtime reading of HR max during a workout, and not an estimated HR max based on certain info you feed into the Polar, which I think some of their models can do
herche
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 4:17AM - in reply to herche Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Also, having a VO2 max of 71 doesnt mean you are a top runner. Indeed, while VO2 max can predict performance amongst a group of people who vary greatly in performance, when you apply it to a group of good runners, the prediction ability from VO2max can be a little less reliable, ie test a bunch of good runners, and the guy withe highest VO2 is not necessarily the fastest.

Mine is 75 according to a Lab in the UK, but I'm only a 33:00 10km runner, so either I'm going to get better or it's not the be all and end all. I can see myself getting to about 31:45, but that doesnt really correspond to some other runners in the past who had VO2 in the 75 range and were world class. Like Frank Shorter I think.
two
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 9:37AM - in reply to herche Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Polar VO2 Max predictions are based on population data. It takes your max HR and Resting HR into consideration and matches you with population means. In other words it is an educated guess based on what other peoples VO2 max values are who have similar max and resting HR's.
polaruser1
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 9:56AM - in reply to how acurate? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I did a lot of research in this subject several years ago. Polar has the paper it published regarding this available on line. The monitor is within 2% correct. I've had my VO2max tested and my polar watch was within 2 values of my actual test.

One day, I decided to test it. I tested it in the morning, after eating, after working out, after eating, after working out, while talking to someone, while driving, etc. It gave me 74 or 75 every single time for 12 tests total. This is what my most recent actual test came out to.

Now, am I a 4:07 miler. 14:13 5,000m runner or a 1:05 half marathoner? No. VDOT works well, but you have take other factors in to consideration: muscular endurance and the most important: economy.

I know people don't like to hear this, but you can improve your economy. The article written by John Kellogg was good, but not perfect. If you want perfect, read The Pose Method of Running book. Before knocking it, read it. If you think that this model of running is flawed, then you are not understanding it fully.

With improved mechanics, I've been able to train more, injury free and improve upon my times. Six years ago, my VO2max was tested in a lab at 69. My mile time was 4:54. With improved mechanics and a VO2max still at 69, my mile time improved to 4:25. With even more training, my VO2max is now 74, but that's only possible due to good mechanics, which are outlined very well by Pose, which have allowed me to recover faster, run injury free, more relaxed and Faster. I still have work to go and I hope to get closer to perfect form and take full advantage of my VO2max.
polaruser1
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 10:08AM - in reply to polaruser1 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
in addition and to sum up:

VO2max is valuable only with great economy.

There was a doctor in the 60's who found that tumors have blood vessels to them and that if you cut off the blood supply, you can kill them.

Sounds reasonable enough. He was shunned. The paradigm at the time did not agree with his findings. He moved to an island, continued his research and was later given a Nobel prize.

I think the same goes with running economy. People like to go with the flow, think like everybody else. The current paradigm on economy is run barefoot on grass doing strides in addition to running and do some plyometrics.

Before being like the foolish doctors who shunned the doctor who was actually correct, read the book, think for yourself and try it.

Yes, you can improve your VO2max and you can improve your economy. Why not do both? The real test is a coach who can have a 100% injury free team for years on end and whose runners have improved to have great mechanics. When that coach comes along, take his/her advice. Until then, question and think independently.
The Light
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 10:12AM - in reply to herche Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I wondered why "luv2run" made a distinction between "peak" and "max". The original question did not mention "peak". I still wonder what the difference is -- he didn't say. But anyway, that's completely beside the point.

The Fitness Test estimates your HRmax, and VO2max based on resting heart rate, heart rate variability at rest, age,
gender, height, body weight and self-assessed physical activity. It is not associated with any recorded maximum HR during any workout, and indeed, one of the benefits of the Fitness Test is you can do it in a few minutes with nearly no effort at all -- you just lie down and relax for a few minutes, until you hear the beep. This is a huge benefit if you happen to be 100 pounds overweight, and traditional lab measurements on a bicycle or a treadmill might be fatal.


herche wrote:


luv2run wrote:

Polar measures HR very well.

There is a difference in "peak" and "max".

The ability to predict VO2max is a little more dubious.


just be sure if its a realtime reading of HR max during a workout, and not an estimated HR max based on certain info you feed into the Polar, which I think some of their models can do
The Light
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 10:32AM - in reply to herche Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Perhaps "top runner" is the wrong term. I was thinking of a group which would include a 33:00 10K runner. And of course, things like economy and efficiency can have a positive or negative effect.
Hayduke
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 10:53AM - in reply to polaruser1 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

polaruser1 wrote:

read The Pose Method of Running book. If you think that this model of running is flawed, then you are not understanding it fully.




One of the laziest, craziest arguments of all time.

If you AGREE with the pose method, then you are not understanding it fully.
The Light
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 11:03AM - in reply to polaruser1 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Do some people actually argue that running economy doesn't improve or can't be improved? I understood that in the long term, running economy just improves with continuous training. Your body just gets better at doing something it does a lot.

Whether the POSE running model is flawed or not, I thought a major flaw in the POSE model is the way it is taught leaves too much up to the student. The burden of success, and the blame when it doesn't work, is placed on the athlete, who gets a book, a CD, and a weekend group seminar. The reflexive response by its advocates is either you succeed, or you didn't do it right. Either you think it's perfect, or you don't understand it yet.

Wasn't there a study that showed the POSE method actually reduced running economy? Is there more than one study regarding POSE and running economy?

Although clearly POSE has worked well for you, I just wonder if it's premature to conclude that POSE is directly responsible for your improvments in VO2max and running economy.
luv2run
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 12:03PM - in reply to The Light Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Peak is the highest value you see.
Max is the highest single minute average.
polaruser1
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 12:13PM - in reply to The Light Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I compare it to playing the piano. You can teach a student perfectly, but it is up to the student to master it. The teacher can not make the student play perfectly.

You are right, it is cut and dry. If you are doing it correctly, you stay uninjured and run well. I've seen people who think they are doing it right, but are far from doing so. but it takes a lot of time... like playing the piano.

The study sited is seriously flawed. What were they thinking running an experiment over such a short period of time?

The flaw I see with Pose is that it is presented as if it is easy to master. Running economy has a cost and I have found it far more difficult than 100 mile weeks, having a set schedule, etc.

The more I run, the more I realize how exactly right on Romanov is when it comes to running. You lift under your hips with no active landing, your other food lands under your hips, relaxed. Lead to go forward, like a unicycle. The hard part is learning to not control the landing foot/leg and to develop the reflexes to lift quickly. Naturally good runners do this naturally. I've learned how to do it.

I know for a fact that I am running injury free due to form and I can say for a fact that I'm running faster due to running with Pose form. Running otherwise works against forward movement... minimizing any VO2max you have.
dropout
RE: VO2 max according to Polar Heart Rate Monitor? 2/20/2008 12:34PM - in reply to polaruser1 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I also have the Polar RS200sd. The VO2 estimate was very close to lab value. The HRmax estimate was quite inaccurate however, and obviously based on a formula; probably graphed using resting HR and age.

The watch must have been confused when the day after telling me HRmax was 190, I hit 201 in a workout.
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