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Doctor Truth
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/26/2007 11:48PM - in reply to goducks Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

goducks wrote:

What kind of long term damage can it cause, if any?

If used by someone with an IQ over 40, none.
Doctor Truth
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/26/2007 11:49PM - in reply to dollar Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

dollar wrote:


runninaway wrote:

if i knew for a fact that EPO would not kill me then I would take it. I have worked my ass off to be an average college runner and have no talent. With EPO I think I could be one of the top and could then compete with those that have talent. That being said I dont want to die.I dont like that I would take it, but honestly I think I would.

You'd have to have the money to buy it first.

EPO is cheap.
the other side of the coin
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 12:18AM - in reply to Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Haile - perfect example of low dose HGH and some type of blood booster.
60secsurge
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 1:42AM - in reply to Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Couldn't the reason for the drop off in Daniel Komen's performances be because he trained himself into the ground and tried to break a world record nearly every week during his peak years? There is NO logic in thinking that Komen doped. Does anyone realise that he won the 5,000 and 10,000 metres championships at the 1994 World Junior Championships? Unless there are big doping programs for Kenyans aged 14-16, performances at the World Juniors are the best way to rate an athletes NATURAL talent. Just for good measure Komen broke Haile's 5,000 world record the following year as a 19 year old, only he was just beaten by Kiptanui in the same race. Big improvements as an 18,19,20 year old aren't surprising. If a non African went from a 13:30 to a 13:05 during this time we wouldn't be surprised. It's just that Komen (and many others) were already at a higher level. Check out the all time world junior lists. At least 80% of the names are Kenyan. They are more talented so can you please get over it?

Tergat is more likely to have doped than Komen considering that he went from being a 27:14 runner at 26 and two years later ran 26:27. Of course he did have the disruption of a serious injury in 1992 and that was after he took up the sport late.
whhael
hmmmm 11/27/2007 1:47AM - in reply to 60secsurge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Are the effects of EPO the same on females as male? Any more or less risk with a female?

And where the hell can you get it?
not a serious runner
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 2:02AM - in reply to 60secsurge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

60secsurge wrote:

Couldn't the reason for the drop off in Daniel Komen's performances be because he trained himself into the ground and tried to break a world record nearly every week during his peak years? There is NO logic in thinking that Komen doped. Does anyone realise that he won the 5,000 and 10,000 metres championships at the 1994 World Junior Championships? Unless there are big doping programs for Kenyans aged 14-16, performances at the World Juniors are the best way to rate an athletes NATURAL talent. Just for good measure Komen broke Haile's 5,000 world record the following year as a 19 year old, only he was just beaten by Kiptanui in the same race. Big improvements as an 18,19,20 year old aren't surprising. If a non African went from a 13:30 to a 13:05 during this time we wouldn't be surprised. It's just that Komen (and many others) were already at a higher level. Check out the all time world junior lists. At least 80% of the names are Kenyan. They are more talented so can you please get over it?

Tergat is more likely to have doped than Komen considering that he went from being a 27:14 runner at 26 and two years later ran 26:27. Of course he did have the disruption of a serious injury in 1992 and that was after he took up the sport late.


but why would they not have doped if they ran what they ran clean? imagine how good they could have been. or do talented guys not get the benefits? is that what you are saying? they train their ass of for many years and do not make use of all the easy ways to improve performance?
LA Fan
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 2:26AM - in reply to goducks Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Use common sense and follow the leader, Lance Armstrong. has he been caught yet ? No, and Lance has stashed his money away in foreign banks, and is baiting Prick Pound laughing his head off.
Coke
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 2:35AM - in reply to Orpheius Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Let me ask u something. if epo increases ur chances of blood clotting by increasing ur RBC, and u dont want to feel guilty. So if thats the risk, isnt that also a risk when u go high altitude for training? because thats just the legal way of dopping. ur HCT will go up in altitude. u produce more RBC in altitude.
60secsurge
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 3:43AM - in reply to not a serious runner Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

not a serious runner wrote:

but why would they not have doped if they ran what they ran clean? imagine how good they could have been. or do talented guys not get the benefits? is that what you are saying? they train their ass of for many years and do not make use of all the easy ways to improve performance?


Not saying that no top guys have/are doping but you haven't addressed what I said about Komen or the other great Kenyan juniors. Please let me know of any special systemated doping programs that are/have taking place involving 16,17 year old Kenyans. If the Kenyans were 'average' and then making big improvements in their mid 20's or later then we should be suspicious. This is almost always not the case.

Discuss.
birth certificate
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 4:02AM - in reply to 60secsurge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
To be honest I think that the age of Kenyans is more of a problem than whether they are doping at 16 or 17 or not. Watch Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel, and guess what interviewed some Ugandans I believe that had escaped to kenya and they all pick the same birthdate because they don't know when they were born or how old they are. So Kenyans should be erased from the Junior Record books cause half of them are 20 plus when they are racing 18 year olds.
birfday
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 7:43AM - in reply to 60secsurge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
c'mon man you don't have a clue - african ages are very flexible - whenever it is convenient, they are younger or older than they need to be.

world juniors and college in the us is simply the minor leagues - and the big league calls them up from there.




60secsurge wrote:

Couldn't the reason for the drop off in Daniel Komen's performances be because he trained himself into the ground and tried to break a world record nearly every week during his peak years? There is NO logic in thinking that Komen doped. Does anyone realise that he won the 5,000 and 10,000 metres championships at the 1994 World Junior Championships? Unless there are big doping programs for Kenyans aged 14-16, performances at the World Juniors are the best way to rate an athletes NATURAL talent. Just for good measure Komen broke Haile's 5,000 world record the following year as a 19 year old, only he was just beaten by Kiptanui in the same race. Big improvements as an 18,19,20 year old aren't surprising. If a non African went from a 13:30 to a 13:05 during this time we wouldn't be surprised. It's just that Komen (and many others) were already at a higher level. Check out the all time world junior lists. At least 80% of the names are Kenyan. They are more talented so can you please get over it?

Tergat is more likely to have doped than Komen considering that he went from being a 27:14 runner at 26 and two years later ran 26:27. Of course he did have the disruption of a serious injury in 1992 and that was after he took up the sport late.
deniability
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 7:48AM - in reply to 60secsurge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
why don't you see any u.s. college kenyans dropping a sub 13 5k? they run fast but mortal times, obviously talented - it doesnt add up and stinks just like lance and regina.
What Lance Did
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 7:52AM - in reply to LA Fan Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
From an undisclosed location:

I have my sources bro's.....I know why he was never caught. Herras got caught micro dosing epo, which is actually almost fool proof....but Lance didn't micro dose epo as he was too paranoid.

I am also in the medical field and work with blood and not just a coach/trainer.


But first...Armstrong was actually caught in 99 with cortisone in his blood....then his doc produces a script for a saddle cream and he is off the hook ! HA!..anyone that knows pro cycling knows that cortico's were, and still are, the most widely used drug.

Anyway....Lance and others like Ullirch and Basso etc etc..... would disappear late in the season or early in the off season. They would quickly jack to 55% in a few weeks "good" epo cycle and then save bags of their own blood.
You simply take the whole blood and spin off the plasma and platelets. This leaves ya with pure packed red cells. Each 500 cc of whole blood will spin down to about 300cc of packed red cells.

HA!>>>then the packed cells are frozen quickly with liquid nitrogen and placed in a rack, evenly spaced, in a very cold freezer. Red cells can be kept frozen in a cryoprotectant (usually glycerol) for 10 years

For every unit of packed cells you "re-infuse" you get a 3 point increase in crit.

All you have to get to 49% for the initial "weigh in" testing with blood doping(your own saved blood)...go back to your trailer and infuse a couple units and bingo you're 55%.
If they test you after a stage you simply say you are dehydrated. If they insist on a test after you hydrate then you grant them their wish but fist you go to the trailer/motorhome to re-hydrate he he he.... and infuse a couple liters of saline or lactated ringers IV into ya . Each liter of saline or ringers will drop your crit 3 points. The after an hour or two you pee it all out and bingo you're back at 55%!

The blood in our friendly Spanish doc's office WAS FROZEN PACKED CELLS of Ullrich, Basso etc etc.

Ullrich packed it in because he knew he was toast anyway. Basso is very lucky to only get one year....he had his own blood frozen in the office!!! HA!

Now before epo testing nobody really bothered with this and just used epo all the time "in season".

Blood doping with ones own blood isn't rocket science and has been around a long time but it never caught on with pro cyclists in the 80's as some people think. The 80's were years of ampetamine, cortico and some steroid/testosterone use.
21questions
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 8:00AM - in reply to What Lance Did Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
i am blown away
The Big R
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 8:33AM - in reply to What Lance Did Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'm glad I was never close enough to being really good to have to care about all this stuff. If I had been on the cusp, might have done them too. Then I'd have to rationalize my success, if I had any, for the rest of my life, since I have a conscience. Lousy conscience.

Just run, baby.
da knowledge
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 8:43AM - in reply to 60secsurge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You can take it or leave it, this is not a troll message reply

I had two friends who went over seas to train in both Morrocco and kenya at training camps, they were actually not invited but was able to watch them from public tracks around the areas. They saw athletes getting shots in their arms after workouts some hours after done with their workouts, this is honestly a true account of what they saw, dont tell me this was vitamins or some shit

Young athletes are being doped because they are marketable, they win these junior titles and nike addidas and reebok want them and offer big pay checks so they sign em


Let the arguments begin!!!
call me ishmael
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 9:08AM - in reply to deniability Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

deniability wrote:

why don't you see any u.s. college kenyans dropping a sub 13 5k? they run fast but mortal times, obviously talented - it doesnt add up and stinks just like lance and regina.
They aren't the best runners. The best Kenyan runners stay in Kenya and run as professionals. Henry Rono was running faster than these guys 30 years ago.
Ifrane?
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 9:18AM - in reply to da knowledge Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
but there are such things as recovery shots you know.
they are exceedingly common, vitamin B complexes, rehydration stuff. Look them up, all top athletes use "recovery" products
usually as shots as they're absorbed more quickly and efficiently. Not that I doubt there is doping but not every shot in the arm needs to be suspect.
Harry Kooter
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 9:57AM - in reply to Ifrane? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Ifrane? wrote:

but there are such things as recovery shots you know.
they are exceedingly common, vitamin B complexes, rehydration stuff. Look them up, all top athletes use "recovery" products
usually as shots as they're absorbed more quickly and efficiently. Not that I doubt there is doping but not every shot in the arm needs to be suspect.


I find this more likely. People who dope aren't doing it out in the open at the track after workouts. There's no reason that they need to take the stuff right after the workout. Some (or all) of them might be doping, but I don't think that you saw them doing so.
Press-to-Seal
RE: Does using EPO really have any negative consequences 11/27/2007 10:36AM - in reply to call me ishmael Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You would expect one or two to "slip up" or "go under the radar" so to speak and bust out a 12:50 or sub 27:00 - then head back to Kenya to go pro. That hasn't happened - why is this?

So you don't think that Kenyans would dope for money? Why is this? They will certainly sell their souls for money to become Arab chattel.



call me ishmael wrote:


deniability wrote:

why don't you see any u.s. college kenyans dropping a sub 13 5k? they run fast but mortal times, obviously talented - it doesnt add up and stinks just like lance and regina.
They aren't the best runners. The best Kenyan runners stay in Kenya and run as professionals. Henry Rono was running faster than these guys 30 years ago.
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