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keep_going
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 4:40PM - in reply to the wall Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

the wall wrote:

I just read his book and thought it was pretty cool, but i've hard a few posters think he's an ass who gets too much glory.
i do understand that the events he runs are not contested as widely as other mainstream running events, but even then, he's not doing it for fame(even though he did write a book which sold quite well).


This seems to be the main problem that runners have with Dean. He IS doing it for the fame and only for the fame. If he was doing it for the love of the sport, he wouldn't be making a carnival like atmosphere in everything that he does. Furthering the sport doesn't matter to Dean. It's all about furthering Karnazes Inc.
perspective on Ultras
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 5:36PM - in reply to keep_going Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
The problem I have with DK getting so much self inflicted publicity is that it misguides people as to the great ultra running performances.

how about * 6:53 per mile for 100 miles
* 5:50 per mile for 50 miles

how about a woman running 6:20 pace for 62 miles.

Those mind boggling performances are genuine.
aussie aussie aussie
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 6:53PM - in reply to sp!kes Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

sp!kes wrote:

what a new and wonderful idea for a thread on the letsrun messageboard!


then why did you click on the thread?
aussie aussie aussie
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 6:58PM - in reply to sp!kes Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

sp!kes wrote:


Sonny Crockett wrote:


traxor wrote:

I am unfamiliar with who Dean Karnazes is. Can you please give me a list of the highly competitive races that he has won?


How about a list of highly competitive races you have run?


um, good arguement, moron, but "traxor" hasnt written a book, he does not do speaking engagements, he does not revel in the title "worlds fittest man." Dean K does do all of these things so it is proper to ask what has he done to earn the right to do these things and actually have an audience.

answer: Dean hasnt done anything many many people on this board couldnt do. People on this board just dont want to do the stupid, uncompetitive, boring things that Dean K does. What Dean has done to earn his audience is market himself extremely well. He should actually write a book about Marketing. I might buy that one because he is truely an expert on that subject.



while it is true that his running has developed from 'simply' running into a big marketing machine, i would disagree when you say many many people on this board could do if they wanted to. to run 199 miles over two days non-stop takes training preparation and mental tenacity that few people on this board, let alone anywhere, would have, me included. regardless of whether he's doing it for fame or not (what do you think mainstream professional runners like webb and lagat are doing it for? the money's good, but...) he has some pretty impressive human accomplishments.
<kilgore>
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 7:16PM - in reply to aussie aussie aussie Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Ultrarunning is a circus act, and Dean K. is the most famous clown in it. I admire his unabashed marketing sense, but I do not admire him as a real athlete.

I find it interesting how we have the Penguins and Gallowalkers at one extreme and the ultrarunners at the other extreme. Aristotle said that virtue lies at the midpoint between excess and deficiency, so we can see this in action here.

Competitive runners who train and race are the real runners. They are true athletes, and guys like Ed Whitlock show that you can apply this same mentality to racing in your later years. The goal should be excellence. This is the mean between being a gallowalker and being an ultrarunning masochist.

Out.
JustAGuy
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 7:26PM - in reply to <kilgore> Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
To say that ultrarunning is a circus act comes across as very snobbish.
random lurker guy
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 9:28PM - in reply to JustAGuy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Before I throw in my two cents, I want to preface this by saying I've never met Dean Karnazes. I would like to just so I can get an impression on what he is like as a person. I read the board postings, the articles in magazines and online. I don't think any of them can give an accurate picture of what Dean Karnazes is like, but here is the impression I see.

There are a couple reasons why I dislike the guy:

1) While he has won two major ultras (Badwater and Vermont), he does more publicity stunts than he does races. The 50/50/50 was an impressive feat in its face. The Karnazes publicity machine turned it into the "greatest endurance challenge ever". The mileage is high, but no higher than the best marathoners in the world run each week. Either he, or all his people allowed Karnazes to be built up as the greatest American Endurance Athlete or Runner out there when that is clearly not the case. There are much better ultra runners out there, there are much better marathoners out there as well. In terms of professional marathoners, Dean isn't in their league.

2) Before I go on, I must say, Dean is a heck of an athlete, I do not deny that. No one on this board should. He can and has accomplished some physical achievements that are incredible. To say though that no one else could do them is a bit of an overstep. I'm not saying anyone in this thread has, but that is the reaction you get from SOME people posting on the board or from impressions given from the Karnazes Marketing Machine. The top American and international runners could all run 100-150 mile runs if they wanted to. Some of us could TRY to run 100 mile runs and maybe even a few of us would finish. I know I'll never try it not because I don't think I could finish, but rather because I don't really care to train or attempt it. A marathon is more than enough distance for me to run in one sitting.

3) In the end, Karnazes is a good runner, but he's an even better self-publicist. His former profession was in Public Relations work. My main objection is when I hear that he gets these accolades as the top American Runner, or Best Endurance Athlete. I disagree. If he wants that title, he has to earn it by beating the best. Yes he has won two major ultras, but there are other ultra runners out there who would beat him by HOURS. For those of you who are unaware of any of them, look up Scott Jurek.
Eric Langhjelm
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 10:06PM - in reply to random lurker guy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sometimes I get the urge to publicly challenge him to a duel - he picks the distance / stunt, we get 6 months to prepare / promote and then we battle it out. 100% of the money raised goes to the winner's charity, whatever...

The solo stunts are irritating (to me).

He's the only fish in an empty pond (but he could definitely teach a master class in self promotion...and I might even attend).

Eric
mastersfattie
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 10:50PM - in reply to Eric Langhjelm Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
wow..Dean has a sponsor who pays him and funds his expeditions...its worth if for TNF to lead the 50/50/50 to launch a shoe or Accelerade to have him kick off their ready to drink launch with a 24 hour run in Times Square....look at all the press he generates...he's in freakin In Touch or whatever it is called

I guess he should just say no to all the $, speaking engagements and notoriety for the good of the sport and so that so-called real runners can get the fame and notoriety as well..yeah..that's the ticket

the biggest point in all of this is that a company such as The North Face does a better job promoting Dean Karnazes than many of the top shoe companies do with their own athletes, despite exponentially larger budgets
Eric Langhjelm
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/9/2007 11:08PM - in reply to mastersfattie Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Yes, he's making a living, and probably a pretty handsome one. Good for him. He's become a brand.

For whatever reason, he kind of reminds me of John Stanton, President / CEO of the Running Room.

People are buying what Dean is selling.

Still doesn't make him a great runner. For me, he has to beat great runners to become a great runner.

So, with that being said, all I'm looking for is for him to go head to head with someone. Yes, he's won a race of note (Badwater), but that's an event that is as niche (and as hardcore) as they come. I would love to see him challenge someone like Scott Jurek to something crazy like a race around North America. If he wins, awesome. Even better. At least it would help validate some of this "America's Greatest Runner" crap. Probably raise even more money / awareness for some charity.

It just seems kind of...empty...to become the best at something that no one else does.

But like I said in my last post, Dean could teach a master class in self-promotion and I would be the first to sign up.

Eric
longshortlong
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 12:44AM - in reply to Eric Langhjelm Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Eric Langhjelm wrote:

Yes, he's making a living, and probably a pretty handsome one. Good for him. He's become a brand.

For whatever reason, he kind of reminds me of John Stanton, President / CEO of the Running Room.

People are buying what Dean is selling.

Still doesn't make him a great runner. For me, he has to beat great runners to become a great runner.

So, with that being said, all I'm looking for is for him to go head to head with someone. Yes, he's won a race of note (Badwater), but that's an event that is as niche (and as hardcore) as they come. I would love to see him challenge someone like Scott Jurek to something crazy like a race around North America. If he wins, awesome. Even better. At least it would help validate some of this "America's Greatest Runner" crap. Probably raise even more money / awareness for some charity.

It just seems kind of...empty...to become the best at something that no one else does.

But like I said in my last post, Dean could teach a master class in self-promotion and I would be the first to sign up.

Eric

*******************


I think letsrun needs some standards. Before anybody can rag on anybody else they need to show that they are in the same ball park and know what they are talking about.

So before you badmouth Karnazes why don't you show us what a stud you are and that you know what you are talking about by going out and winning Badwater? Or even finishing in the top half of the field.
tattoo you
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 2:04AM - in reply to longshortlong Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Can you please explain how I am bad mouthing Dean? I simply stated that I would like to see him compete for a change rather than pull of a variety of stunts that no one else seems to have the time of day for (or, perhaps, are up for). If, on the off hand, he's doing it solely for charitable / humanitarian purposes, then I'll shut up because the stunts are certainly drawing media attention (and plenty of discourse on this and other sites). But I doubt it.

I've seen Dean tackle Badwater first hand and I was impressed with him as much as I was with every one else tackling that beast of a course. I plan on taking part in it one day and I will be grateful to even finish.

Futher, I've met Dean twice and both times I came away with the impression that he's a very nice guy. When Pam Reed beat him at Badwater, he was gracious in defeat and friendly to anyone who wanted a word with him (the same can't be said of Pam, at least at that moment in time...but then again, she did just run 135 miles through the desert).

Finally, I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was claiming to be a stud runner. I'm definitely not, but I don't suck either. Just an above average runner who is a big fan (and supporter) of the sport. As for my knowledge of the sport, I've been running for 20 years, have been race director of over 60 running events, have crewed (not run) at Badwater, have run against Dean a few times, trained with and had my ass handed to me by Olympic ahletes, blah, blah, blah. Google my name. Lot's of mediocre times (4:02, 8:43, 15:23,...you get the idea) and even a few embarrassing performances (but a few good beer mile times!). Like the time I walked the last 18 km of the Whidbey Island Marathon and still finished an hour ahead of the "Ultramarathon Man." Sorry, cheap shot.

I have no idea if I could beat Dean at one of his extreme events or not. I've beaten him at a couple of road races, and by quite a margin. However, I don't think he cares one bit who I am and whether I beat him or not.

All I'm saying is that I would love to see him take on the challenge of racing against some of the best ultrarunners around and see where he ends up.

He may not have annointed himself the best runner in America, but he's sure not going out of his way to disprove that notion. Personally, that bugs me. Seems dishonorable. Slightly disrespectful of America's elite - Meb, Hall, even Jurek and Matt Carpenter.

Also, a number of people have stated that Dean should be given credit for increasing the exposure of running in North America. To a certain extent, yes. However, the kind of running that he is bringing exposure to is the kind of running that only a tiny percentage of the running population is doing - 24 hours on a treadmill; running a marathon a day in every state; 350 miles without stopping, etc. How is that going to boost participation in running? Who can relate? We can all revel in the insanity of it. The indestructability of his body. His actions will undoubtedly lead to charitable donations (good on him), and perhaps there will be a movement en masse from the couch to the streets once his book is read in every home in America (and Canada). I doubt it. He's a novelty act and he's making a living from it. I wish I could sometimes.

Again, party of one. Solitary fish in an otherwise empty pond. He's not running. He's persevering. He's showing that he has incredible stamina. Top of the gene pool. I am genuinely impressed.

I still want to see him bring it against a field of worthy competitors. That would be good for the sport. Good entertainment as well.

Eric
the wall
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 6:38AM - in reply to Eric Langhjelm Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Eric Langhjelm wrote:

Yes, he's making a living, and probably a pretty handsome one. Good for him. He's become a brand.

For whatever reason, he kind of reminds me of John Stanton, President / CEO of the Running Room.

People are buying what Dean is selling.

Still doesn't make him a great runner. For me, he has to beat great runners to become a great runner.

So, with that being said, all I'm looking for is for him to go head to head with someone. Yes, he's won a race of note (Badwater), but that's an event that is as niche (and as hardcore) as they come. I would love to see him challenge someone like Scott Jurek to something crazy like a race around North America. If he wins, awesome. Even better. At least it would help validate some of this "America's Greatest Runner" crap. Probably raise even more money / awareness for some charity.

It just seems kind of...empty...to become the best at something that no one else does.

But like I said in my last post, Dean could teach a master class in self-promotion and I would be the first to sign up.

Eric


yes, scott jurek's a very accomplished runner, but if karnazes wasnt around and jurek was a better self-promoter, wouldnt we be saying the same sort of thing about jurek? (though jurek is arguably the best in ultrarunning, unlike karnazes)

i think what ticks people off so much is that karnazes does all these things and its hard to gauge him against more mainstream athletes because they choose not to undertake such feats; ultrarunning is a niche sport.

i think to satisfy everybody, get gebrselassie or someone like that to do ultrarunning training and then a raceoff with karno. i think that would satisfy alot of people.
mastersfattie
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 9:14AM - in reply to the wall Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Outside Mag gave Dean the title America's Greatest Runner, Men's Health or something called him possibly the world's fittest man..

the thing is this..he has 10 or 11 buckles from WS100, you can't fake that...in addition to winning Badwater and the Vermont 100...he has competed for a long time in the ultra world...

look at any sport..is the so-called best the most popular, oftentimes not....
Bigger Picture
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 10:49AM - in reply to the wall Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
i think what ticks people off so much is that karnazes does all these things and its hard to gauge him against more mainstream athletes because they choose not to undertake such feats; ultrarunning is a niche sport.

i think to satisfy everybody, get gebrselassie or someone like that to do ultrarunning training and then a raceoff with karno. i think that would satisfy alot of people.[/quote]



Check out the homepage of our so-called sports authority, ESPN, they have lots of headings to click on for the big sports. You will find the "niche" sport of running hidden behind the "MORE" box to the far right. The sports authorities think our entire sport is a niche. That is the problem we face. We need more influential people making the calls for running. Perhaps DK should consider infusing his marketability into USATF. Those who have been around our sport long enough know that it has never been marketed properly.

It is also worth saying, without it being a slam on DK, that Geb would kill him in an ultra, just as Jurek, Stidel, Carpenter, and many others would. Hell, Carpenter crushed the field in the Leadvill 100 two years ago and beat DK by almost 7 hours! DK is a good ultramarathoner, but he is not great, just as many people checking this site are not great runners. What DK is great at is marketing. I say we empty the offices in Indy and move DK in!
JustAGuy
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 11:26AM - in reply to the wall Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Why is it so important that Dean "Compete" in anything? Anybody on this board is welcome to write a book if they want to. I don't recall Dean or Dean's Machine ever once saying he was the greatest runner. It sounds to me like people are making up claims that Dean himself has never made.

He encourages others to run. That should be a crime, yes?
Dean Karnazes
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 11:35AM - in reply to JustAGuy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I was directed to this site by a colleague of mine, and although I do appreciate the fact that my name is in the news, I would like to use this post to clear some things up about myself.

I do not claim to be the best in the world. If it comes off that way, it is the media's work. Just as Paris Hilton makes headlines and is compared to the liberation of Paris after WWII, I will make headlines being called the best runner on the face of the earth. Still, if it sells papers and products ultimately making me money, I can't fight it. Disagreeing with my sponsors will land me without a paycheck, and the opportunities I have on a daily basis to make a living doing what I love.

I am not the fastest runner over every distance, and arguably even any distance. I don't pretend to be. I am an ultramarathoner and love pushing my body to the absolute limit. My accomplishments tend to be played down on this site because I am not the best in the world, but regardless I am making an impact raising money for charity and at least exposing people to the sport.

If I am able to inspire people to take up ultramarathoning, they will eventually realize that there is more than one star in the sport. They will learn the names Scott Jurek, Pam Reed, and Yanni Kuoros and appreciate their accomplishments. If I can get these people to get out there and get active, to even run 2 miles a day, I feel that my running is having a positive effect on the world.
traxor
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 1:18PM - in reply to Dean Karnazes Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
lol well this is a first
OldXCguy
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 1:33PM - in reply to Dean Karnazes Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Dean, it takes courage to come onto this site, which is mostly negative toward you, and post your perspective. It helps to humanize you, and while you may not acquire an army of fans from Letsrun, you may at least earn some respect for taking your critics head on.
JustAGuy
RE: DEAN KARNAZES 7/10/2007 1:39PM - in reply to Dean Karnazes Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Wow, Dean thanks! I talked with you once at the SF marathon and I'm also very inspired by you. Keep doing what you're doing!
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