Saucony Kilkenny Flats and Minimalist Running

I've had P/F since December 2005 and have run a couple of short runs in that shoe. They are very flexible, but in my experience, they fit a whole size smaller than dress shoes.

Hopefully HRE will see this thread. He has a pair of those shoes and has done some fairly long runs in them. The last I heard he had kind of soured on them however.

I am beginning to feel better and have been stretching religiously on a pro stretch device. I tried at least 10 different methods/products to alleviate the p/f and nothing worked for long.

I'm still not sure about the stretching, because that is one of the first things I tried, well over a year ago.

I've had PF since December 1993 and have found no long-term solution. I really thought the orthotics would work, and they do help, but there's got to be some other thing I've not done, since it won't go away. The concept behind minimalism makes sense to me, so I've been running barefoot for over a year now, about 10mpw. Thought it was a good time to up the miles. I had a pair of these flats since I race one xc race per year, so I thought I would try them.

Flats will GIVE you PF. They did me. I deeply regret my decision to train in them. Prior to that I had experienced no long-term injuries.

I've had these for about 3 months now. I rotate the Kilkenny's with Waffle racers and the Streak XCs. They're about as minimal as you can get. They are so thin (cushioning wise) that you really need to make sure you're running as efficiently and "light on your feet" as possible. I've done runs ranging from 5 to 22 miles in them, as well as tempos, fartleks, and races. I average in the 90-120 mpw range, generally in these three shoes.

Overall, a nice shoe.

So are you saying if I wear an 11 dress shoe I'll take a 12 in the Kilkenny, or a 10?

No wrote:

Flats will GIVE you PF. They did me. I deeply regret my decision to train in them. Prior to that I had experienced no long-term injuries.

Well, the PF probably won't get any worse than it already is! I actually feel worse in shoes than I do barefoot, so I thought that I would go the route of strengthening the feet.

Are flats like these any worse than running in Nike Frees? What about running barefoot?

I do not remember PF being an injury du jour when I began running almost 30 years ago and figured the argument that our overbuilt shoes are contributing to weaker lower legs and feet makes some sense. I'm willing to try it--and for it to make my feet worse.

I just wanted to know about the durability of the Kilkenny flats.

Probably 12.

I wear 10.5 dress shoes and size 11 in all my running shoes.

I should have bought a size 11.5 Kilkenny.

Wore size 10R boots in the service.

No wrote:

Flats will GIVE you PF. They did me. I deeply regret my decision to train in them. Prior to that I had experienced no long-term injuries.

Flats had exactly the opposite effect on me. Within a week they cured me of my PF which had plagued me for a year and a half up until that point.

Average_Joe wrote:

No wrote:

Flats will GIVE you PF. They did me. I deeply regret my decision to train in them. Prior to that I had experienced no long-term injuries.

Flats had exactly the opposite effect on me. Within a week they cured me of my PF which had plagued me for a year and a half up until that point.

I completely agree. Had BAD PF, the kind you have trouble running through, and it didn't go away until I went minimalist with the Nike Free I. Give it a try, nothing else, including orthotics, worked for me. Now I'm pain free.

How long did it take to make you pain free? How much mileage are you doing? I do feel better already, but the power of suggestion can be a powerful thing...

Now that Bob's dragged me here, I'll tell my Kilkenny story. I bought two pairs and did a fair amount of running in one pair. I gave the toher to my son to use for indoor track races.

I did just fine in the Kilkenny for quite a while, as Bob mentioned and had run for as long as two hours fifteen in them. Then one day I did feel a bit of an ache in the ball of my left heel after running in them, maybe for 90 minutes (not sure.) I ran in soemthing else the next day and came back to the Kilkenny again and the ache was still there, though it wasn't bad at all.

At this time, my son lost his pair of Kilkennys (Kilkennies?) and had an indoor race in a day or two. As we have the same shoe size, I gave him my pair and haven't run in them since. I have, on occasion, noted the same ache in my left heel, but it's neither bad nor persistent (knock wood.)

I have found that shoes with medial posts give me PFlike problems. I can't say the Kilkenny did or didn't. Well, actually, they didn't, but maybe they would have if I'd kept using them, or maybe not.

As to durability, the thing about a pair of flats is that they'll last until they fall apart. you aren't counting on the shoe for support or cushioning, so there's nothing to wear out. If you can run in the Kilkenny, you probably won't need a new pair for more than a year.

I'd be interested in hearing about the fit of the Kilkenny vs. the Nike Waffle Racer. I am running in the Waffle Racer currently, but I find them a little bit snug in the forefoot. I am looking for a flat that might be a little more roomy. I have had very good luck (prior to switching to flats) with Asics uppers fitting well.

Find something else, then: my Kilkennys are snug.

Thanks, JR

I ran in Kilkennys this winter. I wear an 8 in Nikes & got a 9 in the Kilkennys. I should have gotten a 9.5, I spent many nights with my sore feet soaking in hot water due to the narrow fit. I do have wide feet though & those shoes are narrow.

They fit awesome, & actually have quite a bit of soft cushioning for a spikeless XC shoe. I loved mine & wore them too much. They have no medial support & are curved. I did some long hilly runs one weekend & developed arch & medial foot pain. I stopped wearing the shoe. It took over a month for it to go away & I still feel the pain every now & then.

I'm not saying it was the shoes that caused the problem, I wore them everyday for a month straight & should have broke them in easier.

Yes, I'm going slow in transitioning to using shoes like this more often for my running. After my track session today, I just did my 2-mile cooldown in them, for example.

Any recommendations for similar shoes with a little wider toebox?

Similar shoe (which I'm guessing is comparable to the Kilkenny)-- I've been trading off with the Puma Cortlandt XC flats since October. Love the feel! I actually like them better for long runs (vs. the Puma H Streets for short workouts/races). I've worn the Cortlandts in 2 half marathons and will wear them for my first marathon next month. Great for both on and off-road running-- excellent grip and flexibility. I can get over 1000 miles/pair, but mind you I've been training in flats for over 3 years. I'd say you'll probably get less out of your first pair as compared to future pairs.

Update: I am now running my early morning runs in these shoes: 4-5 miles each run. Have gone as long as 6. My PF symptoms have abated dramatically during this time. Shoes feel great every run.

I am considering getting a few pairs of Nike Waffles and trying to transition a bit more to running in flats. I do 100mpw and think I could do a lot of that in flats (eventually).

I might as well update a bit as well. I haven't used Kilkennys since February, I think, when as mentioned, I gave my pair to my son and had felt an ache in the ball of my foot when running in them.

The ache is pretty mild and comes sporadically. I haven't been able to connect it to any model of shoe so I don't think the Kilkenny had anything to do with it. I expect I'll get another pair fairly soon but probably will go a half size bigger than the last pair.