Asking for Jim Ryun's 300m Split in his 3'33.1 WR

I've got the Official IAAF World Records Progression book..at school. Bump this up tommorrow and I'm all over it.

Call his Coach, Bob Timmons. He still lives outside of Lawrence, Ks. He would be happy to talk with you. Others make the pilgramage to interview him and talk to him at times. He is always friendly. Call Lawrence, Ks. information for his number.

Last 1200 meters 2:46.6.

Last 800 meters 1:51.3

Last 400 meters 53.5

First 300 in 46.5 - very slow. Conditions hot - 97 degree air temperature and 60's Los Angeles smog. Awful to run in. Track chewed up from 2 days of competition. Ryun was a top talent who came along before before proper training methods had been solidified. People blame Timmons for not training him correctly, but the fact is that not too many people knew what to do back then. For what it's worth, Lydiard said back in 2000 that if he'd have coached Ryun, Ryun would still have the 1500 and mile records, so great was his talent. I don't know about that, but some of what Ryun did always made me believe he could have run 3:46 in the mile on dirt 40 years ago.

So roughly 40.1 for the last 300m. I still think that last 1200m is one of the most fantastic ever run. How many guys have ever run a 1200m faster than that?

I don't have it in front of me, but I am guessing El G, Morceli and a few others split that on their way to WRs in the 1500m.

Can you explain the reasoning that will lead you to be able to distinguish A from B. More importantly the reasoning that will would allow you to be able to claim B at ALL from a mere 1.5 second difference in a single split of a single race?

It's really impossible to say who was the best in history. Take all the best talents, train them optimally and get them to race each other is the only way to decide. But that's impossible.

Still, to run 3:33 on dirt is something else. The loose cinder was likely worth 1.0-1.5sec/lap. My HS and university both had cinder tracks and I was about 1 sec/ lap faster on synthetic than on cinder and that was doing reps or in a 5,000 race. So figure his 1,500m was worth 3:29 to 3:26. Add in better training methods, more competitive opportunities and who knows?

drewr wrote:

So roughly 40.1 for the last 300m. I still think that last 1200m is one of the most fantastic ever run. How many guys have ever run a 1200m faster than that?

I don't have it in front of me, but I am guessing El G, Morceli and a few others split that on their way to WRs in the 1500m.

I believe Ryun ran his last 300 in 39.3. With a faster start or modern day training methods who knows what he was capable of? El G has hit 2:46 several times for his first 1200 but not for his last three laps.

I don't have ElG's splits readily available, but here are splits from Morceli's best 1500's. When he ran his two 3:27's in 1995 he must have gone in the 2:46 range for the last 1200 given how the last lap was around a second faster than the first. All splits from TFN:

3:27.37 - (55.0, 56.2 [1:51.3], 55.7 [2:47.0], 40.4) **WR

3:27.52 - (55.3, 56.3 [1:51.6], 55.7 [2:47.3], 40.2)

3:28.37 - (55.77, 1:51.74, 1100: 2:34.19 1200: 2:47.99[40.38, 54.2])

3:28.86 - (53.9, 57.7 [1:51.6], 55.7 [2:47.3], 41.6) **WR

Fastest 1200 splits

2:58.9 ....................... Gunder Hägg (Swe) Stockholm 17 Jul 42 3:45.8 WR

2:58.0 ...................................... Hägg Göteborg 7 Jul 44 3:43.0 WR

2:58.0 ...................... Gaston Reiff (Bel) Göteborg 26 Aug 51 3:49.0 (3)

2:58.0* ..... Wes Santee (USA) Compton 4 Jun 54 4:00.6 (3:42.8+ WR) (2:59.0 y)

2:56.0* .............. John Landy (Aus) Turku 21 Jun 54 3:57.9 y (3:41.8 + WR)

2:53.4 .......... Stanislav Jungwirth (Cze) Stará Boleslav 12 Jul 57 3:38.1 WR

2:53.4 ..................... Kichoge Keino (Ken) Mexico City 20 Oct 68 3:34.91

2:52.5 ........................... Jean Wadoux (Fra) Colombes 23 Jul 70 3:34.0

2:52.5 ............................ Filbert Bayi (Tan) Aarhus 24 Jul 73 3:35.6

2:52.2 ........................................ Bayi Helsinki 28 Jul 73 3:34.6

2:52.0* ............... Bayi Stockholm 2 Jul 73 3:52.86 y (2) Jipcho 3:52.17 y

2:50.3 ................................. Bayi Christchurch 2 Feb 74 3:32.16 WR

2:49.5 ....................... Sebastian Coe (GBR) Zürich 15 Aug 79 3:32.03 WR

2:48.3 ........................................ Coe Stockholm 7 Jul 81 3:31.95

2:47.3 .................... Noureddine Morceli (Alg) Rieti 6 Sep 92 3:28.86 WR

2:47.1 ..................................... Morceli Nice 12 Jul 95 3:27.73 WR

2:46.34 ................... Hicham El Guerrouj (Mor) Rome 14 Jul 98 3:26.00 WR

2:46.22 ................................. El Guerrouj Zürich 11 Aug 00 3:27.21

2:46.10 .............................. El Guerrouj Bruxelles 24 Aug 01 3:26.12

2:45.78 ................................. El Guerrouj Zürich 16 Aug 02 3:26.79

2:44.75 .................................... El Guerrouj Rieti 8 Sep 02 3:26.96

Well some of the fastest 1200m anyway... Anyone have fastest last 1200m splits? I think that would be a good comparison with Ryun's final splits "should have written sooner" posted above.

I had the actual splits for all of the fastest 1500s somewhere and can't seem to find it. I'll keep looking.

Ryun's run was worth about 3:29 on today's track and possibly could have been quicker it he ran that first 300 in 44 instead of 46. So not much quicker than 3:27 point.

I know that Peter Elliott ran a 2:45.0 1200 TT (pace by Mayock) shortly before he won Comm Games in 1990 and ran 1:42.9 a few months later.

What would be the world record if they ran 1200m? I’m thinking 2:41.49

What was Abdi Bile's split in the WC's in '87? I know his last half was 1:46.9 or therebouts, the slow start might have boasted him over 2:50 but not by much and that had to be one of the fastest last 800m splits ever.

BS wrote:

What was Abdi Bile's split in the WC's in '87? I know his last half was 1:46.9 or therebouts, the slow start might have boasted him over 2:50 but not by much and that had to be one of the fastest last 800m splits ever.

Abdi's splits for his 3:36.80 win at 1987 WC's (from TFN Nov. '87 p.14)

(64.36, 60.82 [2:05.18], 52.64 [2:57.82], 38.98)

In the text:

"Bile, meanwhile, wasn't letting up, his 3:36.80 finishing well upon Gonzalez (3:38.03). Bile's closing splits may well explain Cram's difficulties. He ran his last 400 in 51.4 and his last 800 in a truly amazing 1:46.0. His last kilometer was 2:16.6."

Gonzalez who was second, closed in 52.6, 1:48.0. Spivey (third) closed in 53.0, 1:48.2.

Given that his last kilo was 2:16.6, and his second quarter was 60.82 (with a first 400 at 32sec pace), the first 200 of the last 1200 was probably around 31 or higher (just eyeballing loosely). So his last 1200 was probably in the 2:47 high range at best.

That 52.64 is a scorching 3rd lap.

I seem to recall that, in The Perfect Mile, or maybe somewhere else, it was mentioned that a bunch of the fastest milers of all time (Bannister, Ryun, El Guerrouj, etc.) met together, and one of the things they agreed on was that Ryun was the most talented.

Ultramiler wrote:

I seem to recall that, in The Perfect Mile, or maybe somewhere else, it was mentioned that a bunch of the fastest milers of all time (Bannister, Ryun, El Guerrouj, etc.) met together, and one of the things they agreed on was that Ryun was the most talented.

That was supposedly the gist of a conversation at the Bannister dinner in London in 1994. I was there that night, and if it did in fact take place, it was done informally--not on stage and on the public record. However, I wouldn't disagree with the premise.

Thanks for posting those splits. Makes me wonder what a guy with Ryun's talent would do with today's training, shoes and tracks. I always thought Morceli was the last of the, eh, un-aided record setters, as he didn't look fresh as a daisy after a WR like almost every WR setter has appeared the last 12 years or so.

If he were on drugs like Komen was he'd have run 3:22 on dirt in '67.

What was more amazing about Abdi's 1500m at the 1987 World Championships in Rome, was that from 500m to go to 300m to go, he ran 24.9. I ran mid- 25. range for that 200m and lost ground, and we still had 300m to go.

js