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| foomiler |
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16x, I agree. But I guess I am mindful of the glute max's other role as well when I write, that of being hip extensors. I was thinking along the lines of when we have forward knee drive and the rear thigh is extended forward and the front is flexed upwds.If the glutes are dormant most of this work goes to the hamstrings below, and this upsets the loading on the hip flexors above. But yes, the glutes r stabilisers and that role is crucial. |
| 16x |
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foomiler: Once the knee is in drive phase, the hamstrings and butt should be completely relaxed until the leg begins to come down, then the hamstring and butt work as decelerators to control the fall of the leg back to the ground. From my understanding the glute max is only active in the very last 10 percent of the landing, then for the next 20 percent of the recoiling and relifting of the leg - so indeed, they are stabilizers (max). The glute med and minimus actually work as extenders and abduction. I think the butt can only contract in a running motion if the hamstring is also contracting? You might be right - I'm just going through gait in my head. It would be great to sit down with you and watch slow motion gait and analyze what happens with different people. I am coaching high school right now, and spending a lot of time looking at form and wondering why some kids do certain things. |
| foomiler |
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16x, Hey, no argument w u there. I agree. But I guess since we have been talking abt how weak and underdeveloped glutes can affect the stride cycle, so my point of reference is that when u have 'small' and weak butts, when u extend the hips, the glutes only allow a limited range of motion going forward. That is, while they r inactive in this phase, they nonetheless restrict the full hip extension by being smaller and weaker. Let's say u have weaker left side so the hamstrings on that side may be recruited to reach the desired stride length, to keep parity w the stronger right side. When u do this, the hip flexors may be involved also, depending on how different individual runners compensate. I've seen hamstring strains/tears result from this compensation due to weakened or restricted glute mobility (like when on the track curve, the inner leg). Basically we tend to recruit muscles surrounding the weakened area to pick up the slack. However, these muscles have their own roles as well and so they r forced to do double work in each stride cycle. U can probably see how this will, over time, lead to overstraining and injury to these areas. I'm just pointing out that the hip flexors r often part of that whole compensation that w set up. Yes, no argument there on hip flexor activity during longer, slower running. But that's just my point; whenwe have weak glute med the body weight rests itself more on the surrounding muscles, like the hip flexors, quads, hamstrings. When this happens during a run, these muscles will have to work under considerably increased stress and a more restricted range of motion. That's where they r forced to overwork and strain. I'm sure you've seen runners near the end of long runs or marathons, and they r fatiguing badly. They r probably hunching their backs and 'sitting' on their hips, all the while straining to movement their legs. By now we have seen that this is due to weak core support as fatigue increases. The glutes r also shut down by now and all strain lands on the leg muscles. Many recreational runners do that when they go on normal runs. Esp those w weak core strength. The muscles around their hips r made to work under increased upper body pressure and this forces the hip flexors (amg others) to act both as mobilisers as well as stabilisers almost all thru the entire running duration. This is more so when the runner is noticeably hunched over the front. Thus, I agree w u that hip flexors r not that extensively recruited during distance runs, but that is true only in ideal conditions when the runner has a well established core strength. The reality for common runners and joggers is that we tend to noticeably lose form and postural control as we tire out. Of course, if the runner is running well within her/his core limitations, then they can hold good posture throughout longer runs and workouts/races. But that's why I asked abt whether the posters on this thread have been running way too much mileage when/before they developed this coordination problem. Excessive mileage that pushes us way beyond our physical integrity can lead to muscular compensation, transferring the work of the weakened core stabilising muscles to the surrounding mobilising muscles. I believe it was Aussie maranthoner Roberto de Castella who said that injuries often occur when our cardiovascular fitness exceeds our physical strength. Often distance runners have the lungs to push on but r unaware that their bodies r too fatigued to follow. They have strong legs to press the pace and/or volume, but they lack the core strength to support that activity any longer. This imbalance screws up the respective roles of the stabilisers and mobilisers and so each runner develops her/his own 'unique style.' But this individual 'unique style' is often no more than muscular compensation at work. Video analysis of runers is great; I do that all the time. I agree that different ppl do different things with their bodies as they run. Whether this is always muscular compensation I can't say w absolute certainty. Its just that from my own experience this seems to be the case very often. Maybe u can share more insight regarding this cos I'm learning a lot from yr posts. |
| Miss Osage County |
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Mlbfan24, I do double days to hit 70-80mpw. My first run is my main mileage run or workout, and my second is shorter. My bad leg rarely bothers me on my shorter run. How are your legs "toast"?... not doubting you, just trying to understand the subtle differences between what all of us are experiencing. See, I never have any sort of fatigue or pain with my loss of muscle coordination. It's just that--- the loss of muscle coordination and immediately goes away when I stop, even for a 10sec pause, and then resume a tempo or something. It doesn't affect my quad tiredness/tightness/soreness, not the hams, no muscle fatigue I can feel. Others, A comment about having the problem on hilly runs... Hills on ROUGH terrain/trails and aren't a problem for me. But, when I've had a heavily loaded week of training, by my Sunday longrun, I even lose muscle coordination going UPHILL if I'm on a hilly road if it's SMOOTH. This is especially confusing to me, because when my leg starts to lose coordination during a workout, I can bend farther forward to engage my gluts, which helps (feels awkward but I've tried tons of tricks to try to figure this out and be able to train) . But, even when naturally bent more forward as I run uphill, my leg WILL bother me. ???? |
| foomiler |
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I'm also reminded of Australian coach Steve Bennett in one of his articles at oztrack.com regarding the three stages of an athlete. Just a quick summary from memory below: Stage 1 is the novice, with underdeveloped core stability and strength. So,less overall running and workout volume is prescribed. Also very little long reps, focusing more on shorter fast reps to teach proper movement patterns and hold good form throughout sessions. Main focus is core strength and coordination, plus shorter race distances. Stage 2 is more advanced and the runners can do longer more volumnous sessions like 6x1000m or 4x1200m, bec they have more developed core. They can hold proper form thro out the longer reps and runs. They can also do more lactic work and run higher overall mileage without falling apart. But core work is still an emphasis as they still exhibit some glaring deficiencies. Mostly national level runners and many world class elites fall into this category. Stage 3 is the 'super elite' (my term). Good eg is Hicham El Guerrouj ahd Haile Gebrselassie, who r capable of doing sesions like 5x2000m and 3x3000m at or close to 3-5k race pace during base building, and not be overtrained or lose form! They have fully developed or near fully developed core strength and stability and so can handle high volumes and very high levels of anaerobic training, and not fall apart. Usually we r talking abt world record holders here. (I'm not saying that Bennett's way is the only way to look at levels of athletic competency, just using this as a general skeleton for discussion) Very often we train way beyond our current levels and/or talent and this leads to muscular and neural shut-down. A lot of stage 1 athletes, who haven't taken the time to build a solid foundation, launches into frequent anaerobic work and high volumes like those in stages 2 or 3. Many stage 2 runners r really stage 1 runners training like a stage 3. So we have cases where runners burn out of hit a seemingly unbreachable plateau in performance, bec they have skipped the intermediate and succeeding stages of development. Some ppl can spend many years as stage 1, even adults, even tho they r ripping up tough long sessions, bec they haven't built a strong base of physical strength and flexibility. So they either get stuck or break down or both. Some only need a few years at each stage before rising to become world beaters. Usually when we say 'base' or 'foundation' we refer to CARDIOVASCULAR base, and so we tell novice runners to concentrate on slowly upping mileage to that end. But from my experience,developing core strength and coordination is probably even more foundational to mileage or speed, bec they prevent breakdown structurally and improves running form. I'm not saying that elites do not get hurt, but that they can sustain very much higher levels of work before that happens. Just look at runners like Bernard Lagat & El G at the end of the 2004 Olympic 1500m, how they r holding near effortles looking form even in full sprint for the finish side by side! And under unimaginable pressure! That's not just miles in the legs and lungs but also stability and strength in the torso and glutes. I'm guessing that many of us here r going thru this perplexing problem bec our bodies r telling us to go back to stage 1 (or 2 for some) and try to pass elementary school before we take on high school, and then high school before we jump to college. Unless u r extraordinarily gifted, u don't get to skip grades. Even a super talent like Hicham El G had to spend his teens developing core strength and coordination before he took on the world. That is how the Moroccan atletic federation develops its runners, from the very basic physical mobility and strength before proceeding to the fast,long and hard running/racing. Nothing is forced before its proper time. Often I see coaches and runners grade stages of a runner's development in terms of how much mileage they can handle, or how fast they can run a certain distance. While this is not necessarily wrong, but they often fail to see things like core development and cyclomotive coordination, which tell us what level this particular athlete, highly talented or not, is able to SAFELY train at. This oversight, in my opinion, is part of why many promising runners fall into obscurity and fail to reach world-class. They r simply trained way beyond what their bodies can take. I think its a worth while period we r experiencing now, even as we try to tackle this seemingly bizarre coordination problem. Maybe we shd put off serious racing for a while and take that time and effort to build (or re-build for some) our core, wh of course includes the glutes we have ben talking abt. I believe when we finally overcome this problem, it will lead to higher levels of training and racing, coupled w a wiser mind and humbled heart. But if u rush it u may never come back. |
| 16x |
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I just want to say foomiler that you hit the nail on the head. In order to become faster, or increase mileage, the core strength will be key. It's more than push-ups, sit-ups, etc, but really learning true overall balance. Since I've been back, I sacrifice some of my mileage to this type of training, because just running seems to exacerbate my inefficiencies. |
| track dude |
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I had an appointment with a physical therapist today. The first thing that he noticed was that my left (bad) leg was bigger. He measured the circumference of both thighs above the knee and my left leg was about 1/8" bigger than the right. Then he measured my strength and determined that my quads were way too strong compared to my hamstrings. He said that a person running a lot of mileage should have a 1:1 quad/hamstring strength ratio and I was closer to 2:1. My left quad is also more strong and defined than the right. He said my left internal hip rotator was tight and stretched me out by laying flat on my back with my left foot over my right knee and bringing my knee across my chest towards my right elbow. He also said my neck was too tight and this could be putting pressure on the nerves in my leg so we did various neck stretches. He gave me a 5 minute daily routine for my hip rotator, iliopsoas and neck before I run each day and told me to do hamstring curls twice a week until I get to a 1:1 ratio. I know there's been a lot of different information on this thread, but I just wanted to throw all of this out there in case anyone else may have noticed something similar. |
| spokompton |
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I've commented numerous times on this thread, and my leg has gotten significantly better thanks to a lot of advice on here. I still do the hamstring curl, which really does help as the previous pointed out. I do not think a serious distance runner can have a 1:1 strength ratio if they are running a lot. I just focus on stregthening the hamstings, especially my weaker leg. The hip hike exercise has been great in balancing out my gluteus medius muscles. Hip balance and strength are the key to injury free running. Another good overall leg strengthener for the weak leg are single leg squats, with the off leg resting by the top of the foot on a chair behind you. |
| hskid |
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Yesterday I saw a neurologist (just for fun, my doctor referred me to one a while back) and he did an EMG conduction study on my bad leg. Everything was normal. I did a progresson run earlier that day to see if it would affect the results, but it didn't. The progresson run was sucessful though, as I was able to run 1 mile farther than about a month ago before my leg started to loose coordination. 5 miles at 5:32 pace average, with a 5:53 first mile. This IS progress. |
| mlbfan24 |
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Miss Osage County, When I lose coordination, if I continue running, the effect is kind of like what running through severe fatigue or dehydration will do to you. It's really weird, but my legs will feel trashed afterwards. Even if I don't lose coordination but simply feel fatigue towards the end of a run, it seems to be greatly exacerbated than before this whole ordeal began. My muscles will get incredibly tight and make running extremely difficult. If it gets really bad, it almost feels as though the muscles in my hips and quads are not firing at all and I'm landing dead legged. In regards to the core strength that was mentioned, I know my core strength is poor. When I fatigue it feels like my legs slam into the ground pretty hard. I think this is why long runs have always beat me up pretty bad, especially flat ones. When I first started running in high school, I remember being able to land a lot quieter as I ran. I probably tried to increase my volume too quickly as a beginner and created poor habits. |
| mlbfan24 |
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Track Dude, My hamstrings are pretty weak as well. I did some hamstring curls the other night at the gym and had a hard time with 15 lbs for a single leg curl. If I do leg extensions for my quads, I can manage 3x12 at 30 lbs on each leg without much of a problem. I think my left leg is slightly bigger than my right as well, even though it is weaker. My right leg is more developed though. |
| foomiler |
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track dude, I have similar condition w my neck and nerves, and i am also in the process of sorting it out, tho i don't think mine is as serious as yours. Hamstring strength has been an issue too and for two years this has been an emphasis for me, tog w glutes and core. I recall when I was teenaged and did more of other sports, and had frequent access to gym, I was injury-free and never had coordination issues. I'm guessing that after I turned my attention to almost exclusive running focus, hoping to be the best I could be by running more, I did less weight-work (esp hamstring curls) and played other sports less frequently. I'm guessing I had used up much of the multi-lateral strength and balance I acquired as a teenager over the years, and focused too much on building run mileage and intensity. Like 16x, I'm now doing less overall running and including more of these ancillary exercises. I feel more healthy and whole thus far. Please post more on yr progress, and u too hskid and others, bec I think we need constant help across varying cases. |
| track dude |
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foomiler, I have felt a lot of progress since visiting the PT a few days ago. It seems like my left side is stronger and smoother and I am gliding through my runs instead of feeling really choppy. Before he even looked at me, he guessed that my reflex on the left side (by tapping the knee with a hammer) would be stronger than the right. Sure enough it was. I don't understand why that would be the case (he said it had something to do with tightness). In any event, after he did a really aggressive stretch to my left hip rotators, the strength in my hip flexor was noticeably stronger and my range of motion improved. He said that I would feel better right away when running because the stronger hip flexor would mean that it was easier to bring up my leg, and this is definitely the case. Regarding the neck, I told him that sometimes when my loss of coordination problem occurs I would feel a funny bone sensation in my right forearm. This is what led him to look at the neck. He felt a really thick band on the back of my neck when I nod my head down - he said it is not supposed to feel thick like that, it should be much softer and thinner. So he gave me the neck routine. He said this could be contributing to nerve problems in both my right forearm and my left leg. In any event, I have not felt any nerve problems since visiting his office. He thinks I can be back to running 100% within 6 weeks...we'll see. |
| 16x |
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It sounds very promising track dude. Hoping for the best for you. |
| hillrunner8 |
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well the ITBS in my left leg has become too unbearable to run with so I'm going to be on the eliptical for a while. hopefully the elliptical will help strenthen m glutes while taking the pressure of my ITB. |
| Paul99 |
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The best thing i used to stop by itbs paid was a strap that went above the knee called a pattstrap. It is worth a google search. |
| hillrunner8 |
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that looks like a worthwhile investment...i've been keeping the pain in check by rolling it out with a nalgene, icing, and taking aleve, but still running. hopefully a few days off will help alleviate the pain a little. |
| hskid |
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i had some pretty bad itbs about 1.5 years ago, and the best thing i used was a foam roller. |
| hillrunner8 |
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bump |
| foomiler |
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track dude, I think my case is very similar to yours, just that its my left side that's real tight. I suspected as much that this could be very much part of why I have left hip problems. Track curve running seems to play a significant part in causing this, as I seem to tense up too much in the upper body in order to compensate for the lack of glute firing in the left side. However, I suspect that this goes far beyond track work, because I checked some really old photos and saw the same imbalances way back when I was in my teens. My left shoulder would always appear higher than my right, and my left hip was slightly lower than my right. Leg length issues perhaps, whether functional or anatomical, and definitely strength imbalances from either training and/or daily postural habits. For now, it seems like my sciatic nerve is the key nerve that's been entrapped in a few spots running down from my neck, lats, lower back, glutes, hams, etc. I've been doing exercises for the muscles around the neck, shoulders, lats, etc. and see some improvement. But yours appear very phenomenal, so is it possible for u to post some of the neck routine exercises that your PT prescribed? |