JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

sheister wrote:

obviously I have taken on a battle trying to reason with some quite staunch Ryun fans, but all time top lists that I have seen, compiled outside of the US usually contain names like..

elliot

snell

Guerrouj

lovelock

coe

walker

very rarely Ryun, stop trying so desperately to defend Ryuns honour and wake up to the reality that when it comes to the very very top, all time greats he is not the best.

Once again, I am not knocking him, he was exceptional, one of my favourite runners, but please be realistic.

People's lives and careers can only be measured in terms of actual accomplishments, no if's, but's or maybe's.

Sure, and we know how subjective these lists always are. Elliott rates #1 (and probably also in my book) for essentially 2 seasons, 1958 and 1960--one of which, happily, was an Olympic year. If he had peaked in 1957 and 1959, what then would we think of him? The bottom line: there are different "kinds" of greatness that can and should be appreciated. One kind is the killer-competitive instinct of, say, Elliott and Snell. Another is the exhiliarating, over-the-top talent of a Ryun, even if he didn't have all the historical "luck" we might like. After following the Olympics intently since 1968, I have no delusions whatsoever that the "right" people win the gold medals every time, or that--on some occasions--anything more than happy dumb luck is involved. And dumb luck, no matter how welcome, by itself doesn't make anyone great.

Go ahead and Google all the info on the people in the know - the record setters themselves. See what they said at the big Bannister get-together on the 40th anniversary of the first sub-4 mile. Please. It must be killing you to mention a stack of non E. Africans in your last post, but you're so desperate you'll try anything at this point. No one is blindly worshipping Ryun. Real watchers of the sport just recognize he was one of the most talented ever, who never reached his full potential. Elliot won Gold and didn't run as fast as he probably could have with solid training for a few more years. Coe ran his PR well past his physical prime. He must have had more in him at a younger age. If you're jealous of Ryun, that's your problem. A lot of guys were who were in HS at the same time. Ryun's accomplishments are there - lowering the records by very large margins, ridiculous non-planned record in the 880 and so on. In a completely different era than today with Mondo, rabbits, drugs. Just thinking about it makes me wonder what Snell or Elliot could have done on artificial turf and modern training. We'll never know, just like we'll never know what Ryun could have done. We know what he did, and that was set WRs and demonstrate an unbelievable kick - 50.6 in a 3:38 race. Good enough to show he was a top rate talent. Kipketer has no Olympic Gold as was brought up. He's an all-timer. I don't compare WCs to the runners of earlier eras, they didn't have that 'back in the day'. Go cry over something else.

Funny... because Snell considers Ryun one of the greatest milers ever... I'd say it takes one to know one!

old tymer- thank you for a reasoned response.

And I agree to a point about there being no compensation for plain bad luck.. but that is what i meant about history being a harsh judge, Ryun did have his peak year in 1968 but there was a better runner that day. And I'm sure your much too smart to beleive for a second that it was 'dumb luck, by itself' that got snell, elliot et al there olympic golds.

If we made a list of the most talented milers ever, then sure put Ryun right up the top, but when we are talking about actual feats accomplished in terms of greatness for me there is another class of athlete who held WR's and won Olympic titles unfortunatly slightly above Ryun.

sheister wrote:

... Ryun did have his peak year in 1968 but there was a better runner that day.

Ryun's peak year was '67. He was nowhere near that kind of form in '68. I'm sure you realize that.

Indifferent wrote:

You can watch Ryun race Keino in London in 1967 at Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ICn7-Uaqk

I hear Perry Mason-Squires tried to have it pulled : 0

Thank you very much for posting the link to the video. It's enjoyable to watch some of big names from the past.

You're having to battle staunch Ryun fans because loads of us recognize how great he was even without Olympic gold. I've talked with Brits, Kiwis and Aussies and ALL of them have considered Ryun as one of the greatest milers ever, so I don't know who you've drawn your lists from.

Read Kim Stevenson's posts on this thread. Kim's a Kiwi and was running when Ryun was.

Krash Davis wrote:

Indifferent wrote:

You can watch Ryun race Keino in London in 1967 at Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0ICn7-Uaqk

I hear Perry Mason-Squires tried to have it pulled : 0

Thank you very much for posting the link to the video. It's enjoyable to watch some of big names from the past.

Double thanks from me. Great stuff.

in response to the what makes a runner an all-time great-

i don't think it has to include olympic gold... especially if an olympic silver was attained...

i always think of daniel komen, did you ever watch that guy set his 3000m mark, unreal, the guy was phenomenal i think he will be remembered for a long time as one of the best and if memory serves he had no olympic medal of any color what-so-ever

and let's look at this last olympics... just because baldini wins a gold does that mean he'll go down as a better runner than komen? come on, get real

there are a lot of factors that go into people's beliefs about what makes runners great, an olympic gold is certainly one of those factors but not the only one.

Sheister and the ubiquitous Perry/Squires, may I make a couple of observations to help from someone who is sitting outside the US. First the obvious, any world list not addressing or taking input on pertinent US runners would not be complete. By the way, although he was a superb runner, I have never seen any list with Jack Lovelock depicted as one of the all-time great milers-- I may have very well missed that one.

Second, although victory in the Olympic Games remains the one win choice of all it definitely does not define who's the best of all time or most talented--it definitely remains one of the key components. Many times favorites simply don't win --Injuries and sickness does happen--an example among many would be the 1988 Olympic 1500 final. The guy who won (Peter Rono) ended up being ranked only the 5th in the world that year. Ron Clarke is practically famous for not winning the gold (having the 1968 Olympics at sea-level instead of Mexico City might have changed this), but he routinely makes lists as one of the best distance runners ever. By the way, as someone who also dealt with mono, I am still amazed that Ryun was able to run as fast as he did and win the silver at altitude in Mexico.

Finally, you do not have to be a staunch Ryun fan to recognize the extraordinary talent he had. In fact, your attempt to dismiss it is more amazing. If I read through this entire thread, I don't believe anyone is saying Ryun was the best ever--they may very well have said he was the greatest talent. Frankly, you can't pick a single best of all-time because of changes in tracks, training, and the impact of science (drugs, which I hate to say). That does not stop us from talking about and compiling all-time lists, and for the 1500/mile, I sincerely doubt you can get any group together of real experts who would not include Ryun on that list.

at a gala in london for bannister's 40th anniversary of his brilliant run at iffley road track, a general vote was taken among the mile run's most prominent members. the vote cast jim ryun as the man that was the greatest mile runner up to that time. i would say that perhaps the likes of coe, morceli, cram, andersson, et al would likely have a bit more ability to grasp that concept in a vote than the various "lists" that you have claimed to see.

Thanks HRE: I was running back in '66 but really did not have a handle on what I was doing !

Yes ! Many of us in NZ do consider Ryun one of the greats. What I struggle with here is the 'put downs' of a wonderful runner. No ! we cannot change History but there are enough of us here who are enjoying the posts of those who were involved with JR.

What I would like to see is Drew posting more of his Dad's workouts and other relevant information that have not been published previously.

I find Dr Daniels altitude information fascinating and Jayhawks (and others) 'snippets' of intersting facts about the whole deal.

Now after stating all that and seeing that people are starting to argue over "The greatest 'lists' " I offer the following :

In the mid 1970's I was attending college in the USA in the town of Conway, Arkansas. I had been there a couple of years when I heard that a certain Glenn Cunningham was a resident. I asked one of the PE Professors if it was "The Glenn Cunningham". It turned out it was.

I wanted to meet this man who had a phenomenal reputation in America's Midwest and of course our own running history. Unfortunately, everytime I was fixed up to see him something came up. I recall one time his health was not the best.

However, I did get to meet his youngest son who at that stage would have been 17/18 and quite a good High School runner in his own right.

I don't recall all the detail of our conversations but he did say that his father said possibly the greatest race he was part of was that 1936 Olympic 1500.

Later I was talking with some old KU guys and asked them how would they rate New Zealand Milers (by this stage John Walker had won the 1500 in the 1976 Montreal Olympics).

Their answers were unanimous.

1. Jack Lovelock

2. Peter Snell

3. John Walker

I said "Why Lovelock at No 1"

Their answer was "Anyone who could beat Glenn Cunningham had to be phenomenal because he was an amazing athete in his own right.,considered unbeatable and mentally the toughest athlete of his era"

They also mentioned the fact that anyone who could overcome the burns that Cunningham had as a youngster had to be very tough mentally.

I asked the same guys to rate the famous milers of the University of Kansas. "Easy" they said

1. Glenn Cunnigham

2. equal : Jim Ryun and Wes Santee (Some differences of opinion here)

They then turned to me and said "Why are you asking us these questions, your country has produced the greatest milers of all time !!!"

A statement like that did a Hell of a lot for pride of this Kiwi !!!

Hope that does not set the cat amongst the pigeons !!!!!!

_________________

Kim,

It's probably better to set the cat among the pigeons than do it the other way.

This is a great post because while it's always fun to play with the "who was best" idea it's ultimately an unanswerable question and someone who deserves mentioning, like Lovelock or Cunningham, get short shrift. That's probably ok too, though regrettable. But what really gets sad is when some clown gets going and trashes someone who was a great athlete and should have earned universal respect.

[quote]Kim Stevenson wrote:

What I struggle with here is the 'put downs' of a wonderful runner. No ! we cannot change History but there are enough of us here who are enjoying the posts of those who were involved with JR.

__________________________________________________________

It seems to be the nature of some sport fans to draw comparisons to one athlete or another and from one age to another until the comparison reaches failure. This is not something that interests me. So it goes, was Jim the best?, was he better than XXX?, was his WR better than Snell's?,did it last longer?, was it a bigger improvement than other WR?,was it a good as old Joe Blow? When the comparison reaches failure, these fans are happy. Maybe the best that you can do is find failure early so that we don't have to endure the journey. Thanks to Jack, Drew,and Rink for bringing back the great memories.

Living in the Past wrote:

Snell was no longer working with Lydiard when he was beaten by Ryun. Snell was coaching himself.

You neglect to mention that Snell had also been on the outs with Lydiard prior to his 1964 Olympic Gold Medal performances. Snell was on his own then as well.

Living in the Past wrote:

I personally think it was the training he was subjected to and inadequate rest, which led to mononucleosis and a bizarre inconsistency in 1971 and 1972 that has never been explained.

Do you not recall that Ryun took the entirety of 1970 off from running? I think not running for an entire year may compromise ones ability for consistency in the ensuing time period.

Once81 wrote:

I actually think the most incredible race he ran was the win at the AAU meet versus Snell as an High Schooler. Alan Webb's 3:53 run was great, but for perspective, that would have been like Alan beating El-G and running the 4th or 5th fastest time ever--basically 2 seconds from the World Record. The clip never fails to inspire my runners.

It is amazing, because he not only ran 3:55, but he did it by beating an Olympic Champion, an Olympic Silver Medalist, and the current American Record Holder. Not only that, but he set a new American Record in the process. And to top it off, Jim actually had to run a 4:11 mile the DAY BEFORE to qualify!

Jim also stated that this was the most painful race of his career. The look on his face at the finish sure looks it!

Stopped sheister wrote:

sheister wrote:

Because the facts remain that as great as Jim Ryun was, as fast as he ran, and as immense as his 'talent' may have been, he never won an olympic gold, and thus will never be considered by people in know to be one of the truly great milers. That is not me having a go at Ryun, that is just the facts. History is a harsh judge.

No, to ignorant people, he would not be considered one of the greats. Just as Wilson Kipketer's lack of Olympic Gold would make the ignorant believe he's not one of the all-time greats.

The same with Ron Clarke. I consider him to be the greatest distance runner of all time, and he has no Gold Medal.

sheister wrote:

very rarely Ryun, stop trying so desperately to defend Ryuns honour and wake up to the reality that when it comes to the very very top, all time greats he is not the best.

Once again, I am not knocking him, he was exceptional, one of my favourite runners, but please be realistic.

People's lives and careers can only be measured in terms of actual accomplishments, no if's, but's or maybe's.

Jim Ryun held the World Record longer than anybody ever did in the Mile. He was farther ahead of his contemporaries than anybody else. I think it is clear to anyone who knows the sport that the Top 3 Milers of all time are Herb Elliott, Jim Ryun, and El G, in no particular order.