Cram VS Aouita

I was a big fan of Aouita in the 80's. At first, a lot of meet directors just wouldn't let him into races.

I think he could stake a claim as to being one of the best ever. His range was amazing: Oly 800 bronze with a slight injury, Oly 5000 Gold. I think he made some unwise choices that may hurt his claims to all time greatness. He should have run more 10,000's, in Rome he should have doubled or made a faster pace in the 5000.

He should have run world XC. He said he was going to come to the US and run some road races, he did not (as far as I know).

For the sake of arguement, say he was clean, his range and dominance- like that 3000 WR- make him great.

It's just tough to compare era to era. I always felt that Viren would be able to win Oly Gold in any era, but I'm not sure if he could be competing with guys like Bekele now and Geb a few years ago.

I don't know why some people insist Aouita was dirty when his progression was pretty normal but I guess if you were around the circuit maybe there was a lot of buzz about that. But compare Aouita to a guys like Yobes Ondieki who was a like a 28:30 college runner and 5 or 6 years later breaks 27:00.

Aouita the story goes ran a 3000 on grass in soccer shoes with no training at age 17 or 18 and broke the Morroccan JR record and ran around 8:10-8:15.

He was a 3:37 runner for about three years from 19-21. Had his breakthrough year in 1983 and ran 3:32 and bronze at Worlds. Hits 13:04 the next year and 13:00 in 1985. Than 13:58 in 1987 which was his ultimate best time. Its not lke he knocked 10 seconds off the record in one race like Geb or Komen.

He was a punk though. If he would have grabbed me by the hair to show me his spke wound, like he did to Vincent Roussou at 87 Worlds 5k semi-finals, I would would have knocked his ass to the track

That should be "12:58" in 1987.

I think Aouita was clean. It's just that, whenever you discuss a great runner on this message board someone chimes in with epo or something just as lame. I was just kind of setting it up for a real discussion.

AOuita's training and determination were legendary.

you haven't a clue what you are speaking of regarding aouita. i certainly don't mean to be rude, but that is just the way it is on how you see aouita, runn. good for you though, promising runners need others to look up to and have a goal to match.

I'm almost 50 and have no promise (except maybe as an over 50 runner).

I am telling you what I read in Runner, Running Times, Runners World, T&FNews and various running mags from overseas- back when you could actually find them in some upscale bookstores.

Aouita was a great runner (again, let's say he was clean). I thought he was a bit weird- there was a great, very long article on him in the Runner before RW took over.

SOrry, I do know of what I speak and it's based on information I received from many sources, icluding runners who met him and raced against him. Not meant to be rude.

again, not trying to be an arse, but you really haven't a grip on who the little moroccan was unless you spent some time around him.

And also interesting is that you obviously have read very well some of my posts regarding Aouita somewhere else before editing your wikipedia entry for Aouita...

I have no idea if Aouita was clean or dirty, but if you listen to Brooks Johnson, apparently EVERYONE who finishes ahead of Americans is dirty.

So really Aouita's famous 'range' was more down to running away from Cram..

A possible scenario is that Aouita was seeing the astonishing improvement in results from the blood doping he began in 83, felt that even a clean Cram (and injury free Ovett) would continue to be just too good for him at 1500m, and felt that the doping would have an even greater impact if he moved up to 5000m and where he would face lesser competition.

portsea wrote:

aouita was also predominantly known as a 1500 runner when he burst on the scene. aouita was certainly not fearless. he was as you yanks say, a "punk". that is something your magazines and articles won't tell you. he was a dirty scoundrel with an annoying high pitched voice that could crack glass when he spoke french.

Said88 needs to read this

Aouita was doped to the eyeballs like every morrocan athlete

He then got kicked out of Australia for pushing drugs

The 1500m and mile wee definitely the blue riband events back then. Runners only contemplated moving up if they could win or wee past it.

Said never beat Cram

Nobody worried about him in that 800m his pace was not going to trouble the best over 800m. He only got 3rd as others blew up trying to run the race.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The 1500m and mile wee definitely the blue riband events back then. Runners only contemplated moving up if they could win or wee past it.

Said never beat Cram

Nobody worried about him in that 800m his pace was not going to trouble the best over 800m. He only got 3rd as others blew up trying to run the race.

I often agree with your comments, and I do believe Aouita chose the 5000m in LA as it was a more certain chance of gold, a decision that almost anyone would have made in that situation.

He did actually beat Cram times.

- London 1984, mile. Cram did fall, but even if he hadn't, he would have been hard pushed to beat Aouita in the form he showed in 84.

- Seoul Olympics 1988, 800m round 2. Aouita won the heat and Cram was knocked out of the competition, coming 6th.

-Monaco 1991, 1500m. Aouita was 2nd and Cram 4th. Both of course were well past their best at this point.

-Barcelona 1500m, 1991. Aouita 2nd, Cram 5th.

But overall Cram did have a winning head to head over Cram.

I disagree with your comments re Aouita's ability over 800m in 88. He was world ranked no. 1 that year, perhaps debatably, and he was certainly one of the favourites going in to the Olympics, as Ereng made a breakthrough there which wasn't totally expected. Cruz was another favourite, but certainly not in the same shape as 84. It was actually a very open race, and I wouldn't have been surprised if someone said that Aouita would win bronze there.

Deanouk wrote:

[quote]ukathleticscoach wrote:

But overall Cram did have a winning head to head over Cram.

This needs clarification.

83 World Champs 1500m heat - Cram beat Aouita (I wouldn't count this personally as the object is to qualify!);

83 World Champs 1500m final- Cram beat Aouita;

84 London Mile - Aouita beat Cram (fell but finished);

85 Nice 1500m - Cram beat Aouita;

88 Seoul 800m Rnd 2 Olympics - Aouita beat Cram;

90 5th Avenue road mile - Cram beat Aouita;

91 Monaco 1500m - Aouita beat Cram;

91 Brussels 1500m - Cram beat Aouita;

91 barcelona 1500m - Aouita beat Cram;

91 Djakarta mile - Cram beat Aouita.

Result: - Cram 5 wins v Aouita 4 wins.

If you count the heat from 83, then Cram wins head to head battle - 6 v Aouita 4

posters need to realise that there were development differences between the 2 guys

albeit aouita was ~ 1y older than cram, he took up running at late age

in '83, cram was close to finished article, which he wouda been in '84 if not for bad injury & instead had to wait for '85 for peak, albeit his best 800 maya been edinburgh-'86 with -ve split 1'43.2 in horrendous weather

aouita breakout year was '83

in '82 he was an undeveloped guy with best clocking of 3'37.37 in koln, hammered by maree's 3'35.24

aouita was not much of a runner before '83 but upped that to 3'32.54

perhaps nearer 3'32-flat in an ideal race in '83

cram was in awesome form in '83

his run after helsinki in brussels of 3'31.66 when likely tired, had rubbish pacing & drafting & in an ideal race that day, drafted smoothly to bell at 56s pace couda run ~ 3'30-flat & that's after long hard season

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_OQIBdh7xY

cram was likely ~ 2s quicker than aouita in '83 in a flat-out 1500 so no shock cram beat him in helsinki

'84 / '85 was different

aouita had that legendary 36.1 finish in a 3'34.8 !!!

in the '85 race, aouita ran a ridiculous ~ 12m !!! extra on the bends in his 3'29.71

he lacked drafting as so much wide most of the race & uneven pacing

he still finished it off with a 52.7 last lap with wide running on penultimate bend !!!

ideal run that, smoothly drafted to bell, tight in lane 1, he wouda run

~ 3'26-high

he likely had 47.0 / 47.5 speed that day, based on a 46.8 relay leg, assuming that was an early season leg

his lines of fit that day was likely

47.50 / 1'43.00 ->

2'11.97

3'26.73

47.25 / 1'42.75 ->

2'11.76

3'26.68

47.00 / 1'42.50 ->

2'11.55

3'26.64

i'd go with middle estimate

that day he had 1'42-high & 1kWR ability of likely 2'11-high

( of course cram had better ability over 800/1k in '85 )

aouita if he'd targeted his races properly in '85 & got in before cram, was in shape to run 1k/1500/mile/2k/3k/5k WRS !!

that is helluva range !!!

aouita by far was best intrinsic 1500 talent of the '80s & i'm not even sure morceli had it's beating in the '90s

it wouda needed hicham himself to run a 1500 that aouita coudn't match...

Deanouk wrote:

- London 1984, mile. Cram did fall, but even if he hadn't, he would have been hard pushed to beat Aouita in the form he showed in 84.

I disagree with your comments re Aouita's ability over 800m in 88. He was world ranked no. 1 that year, perhaps debatably, and he was certainly one of the favourites going in to the Olympics, as Ereng made a breakthrough there which wasn't totally expected. Cruz was another favourite, but certainly not in the same shape as 84. It was actually a very open race, and I wouldn't have been surprised if someone said that Aouita would win bronze there.

Doesn't your statement regarding Cram/Aouita in 84 contradict your view that Cram was close to top shape in LA, as well as that Coe would have beaten Aouita? The Aouita mile race took place a month after LA, giving Cram even more time to recover from the missed training earlier in the season (if he needed more time). Obviously all the top guys in the 80s at the best would be 'hard pushed' to beat each other, but if Cram fell then it shouldn't count at all in a head to head. If Coe had raced Aouita after LA, and Coe fell I don't think you would count it, even though Coe would be 'hard pushed' to beat Aouita (just as Aouita would be 'hard puhsed' to beat Coe).

Also, the fact Aouita , who had barely broken 1:44, was one of the favourites for the 800m shows just what a weak final it actually was, despite all the sub 1:44 runners on paper. A number of athletes could have won that year if they had been in shape, injury free, or as Ereng actually did, 'made their breakthrough'.

As for Aouita being ranked number 1, that was a joke. Cram ran faster than Aouita in 88. In fact I think Cram was ranked (by times, not by the dubious T&F) in the top 3 for 800m, 1500m and mile in 88. A fit and confident Cram would have walked the double in 88 and would never lose to Aouita over 800.

The Reality wrote:

The world athletics champs in 1983 was actually a bigger athtletics sporting stage than either of the heavily boycotted olmypics of 1980 or 1984.

It's true to an extent, but they were also missing Seb Coe (ill health) and Ovett wasn't at his best (and ran a poor race - his own fault, but likely due to lack of confidence after all the injuries).

In Moscow you had the East Germans and Russians on home turf, with all the special advantages that it brought, enabling Kirov and Straub to run their greatest ever races, likely impossible outside of the Eastern Bloc.

Just watch the Mile race where Steve Ovett obliterated Scott and the rest just a week before Moscow if you think it mattered. And why do people always point to 80 and 84 as 'boycott years' and not 76, when great African runners were missing?