Carbon-Isotope vs. T/E Test for Exogenous Testosterone

Avocado's Number wrote:

"Gatlin's revelation came just days after Landis tested positive for a testosterone imbalance after his stirring comeback victory at the Tour de France. Landis claims his body's natural metabolism caused the result.

The test on the cyclist measured the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in his system and found an imbalance. Gatlin's test was different. Called a carbon-isotope ratio test, it is essentially a test that looks only at testosterone, not epitestosterone, and can determine whether the testosterone in a person's system is natural or unnatural."

Does anyone here know why no carbon-isotope test was performed in Landis's case? Any reason not to perform it now? (I would prefer knowledgeable responses, of course, but thoughtful speculation is fine.)

It will be performed. In fact, it probably already has been. The ratio test is imperfect, but it serves as a red flag of an abnormality which demands further analysis. For more info, see

The International Cycling Union (UCI) did not reveal details of the preliminary lab results, and Phonak, Landis' Swiss-based team, said only that UCI notified it of “an unusual level of testosterone/epitestosterone.” But there were reports in France that the Paris lab had indeed conducted a CIR and that it was positive, and Catlin said he'd be surprised if the lab didn't perform one.

“They are a WADA-accredited lab and they follow WADA protocol,” Catlin said. “I think it's a very safe assumption – very safe. Why would they risk not doing that? I mean, good grief, you'd think they are going to have all their ducks in order for a case like this.”

The problem is that a high T:E ratio SHOULDN'T warrant a red flag if it's "only" 11:1. 11:1 can be normal. About 1% of the population has an abnormally high T:E ratio. Banned powerlifters have been taken down with T:E ratios over 400:1. So the court of public opinion, and the uneducated masses who take things on face value and don't research the damn topic, will forever think he's guilty no matter what the CIR test comes back as. If you have a better test (CIR) why bother with the basic T:E test?

Alan

As I understand it, the CIR is done only after the B sample confirms the A sample for T:E.

Thanks for the link to the article. In an interview shortly after the positive test was announced, Greg Lemond made a comment that indicated his belief that the carbon-isotope test had been, or surely would be, performed, but I never heard anything further about that. Instead, the mass media have generally talked about Landis's positive test for a high testosterone level (which is clearly not correct) or a high T/E ratio (which is, to my mind, far less damning than a positive result on the carbon-isotope test).

As a side note, Landis's personal physician doesn't help his patient's case by suggesting that it doesn't make sense for a Tour cyclist to dope with testosterone, either in training or during the Tour, because testosterone is for bodybuilders who are trying to increase muscle mass. Surely, the personal physician for a world-class cyclist cannot be so ignorant as to believe that testosterone doping is not performance-enhancing for a Tour cyclist.

Manzano: ‘Testosterone effects almost immediate'

Jesús Manzano, the ex-pro who revealed insider details of doping in a series of paid interviews two years ago, said that testosterone can be taken during competition and its effects can be felt "almost immediately."

In an article with his byline in the Spanish daily AS, Manzano outlined the way riders can take testosterone during a competition, undercutting the argument that testosterone is a substance taken over weeks and months to slowly build strength and resistance.

Manzano's interviews helped draw attention to controversial Spanish doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, who is now at the center of an ongoing doping investigation in Spain.

"Its effects are felt almost immediately," Manzano wrote. "It gives you a lot of force and produces a sort of euphoria."

Manzano outlined three ways to take testosterone during a competition.

First are patches, called AndroGel, which are applied during a light massage usually during the evening mealtime. Manzano said the patches had to be used less than two hours to not risk going above the T/E ratio threshold and risking a positive doping test. Manzano also said clandestine suppositories are used as well as intravenous injections, called Rastandol, taking about 20 minutes to 1 hour before competition.

Another option are pills of Andriol, called "beans" in the cycling underworld - or "Ferrari's jellybeans" by some - but these usually take several days to kick in and he said it's not likely riders would use them during competition.

cycling news is reporting that Floyd's isotope test was POSITIVE suggesting that the testosterone is from an EXOGENOUS source. Very Sad!!!

bobin virginia wrote:

cycling news is reporting that Floyd's isotope test was POSITIVE suggesting that the testosterone is from an EXOGENOUS source. Very Sad!!!

ProCycling, too. If this is true, I don't believe there's any doubt that he did it.

Sad ain't the word.

Even Gary Wadler who is on a WADA committee commented about testosterone not being a logical doping agent for an endurance cyclist.

Is this the same WADA lab that leaked the results of the Armstrong rhEPO sample (supposed)? If so, then I would not be so confident that they were following WADA protocols as they did not in that case.

I fell into the same trap about the test being a "positive". So easy to fall into that trap.

Notice that Caitlin (who is not known for his straight answers at least in dealing with sport bodies) comments that he cannot recall a case where his lab found a B not confirming an A. However it has happened. Who remembers Lagat's B sample not confirming the A?

Something I am curious about: if Landis really has a high testosterone that is natural (and it is possible) then how come this has not happened before? If his ratio really is out of whack, it seems like it would have shown up in the hundred (or more) urine samples taken over the past few years. Or at least it seems logical to me.

luv2run wrote:

Notice that Caitlin (who is not known for his straight answers at least in dealing with sport bodies) comments that he cannot recall a case where his lab found a B not confirming an A. However it has happened. Who remembers Lagat's B sample not confirming the A?

Something I am curious about: if Landis really has a high testosterone that is natural (and it is possible) then how come this has not happened before? If his ratio really is out of whack, it seems like it would have shown up in the hundred (or more) urine samples taken over the past few years. Or at least it seems logical to me.

I assume that you do not mean to imply that Catlin's lab was responsible for the Lagat tests.

I have little doubt that, if the B sample confirms the A sample, and both the T/E and the carbon-isotope tests have been performed, Landis's legal team will (1) attack both tests as unreliable, (2) assert that Landis's baseline T/E ratio is high to begin with, and (3) argue that various factors specific to the day of the sampling, including Landis's use of alcohol (which will magically increase from one beer to at least two beers and four shots of Jack Daniels) and the intensity of his ride, could elevate the T/E ratio even further. That should be enough to satisfy Landis's hardcore supporters, rabid Francophobes, and various conspiracy theorists, but not WADA, the scientific community, or any arbitrators in the case.

Do they plan to announce at some specific time? It's after business hours now in Paris...

Landis was quoted as saying he is pretty sure that the B result will be the same as the A result. There was some discussion of the defense being naturally high levels/spikes in the level/ratio. They want a detailed, continual testing of his levels to assess the situation.

Mary Decker-Slaney was banned as a result of the T/E ratio back in about 1997 when she was trying, apparently to extend her competitive career. US body originally let her off but the world body over-turned that decision and banned her. See the Front Page of Track&FieldNews site for more stories on the tests etc.

I think l'equippe reported this about landis and his c13 isotope sorry if I show a bit of skepticism. The rag is infamous for breaking doping stories that turn out to be more rumor than truth. They broke the 1999 armstrong epo story along with the same testing lab and neither the lab or WADA (read DICK POUND) cooperated with the independant investigator that the UCI appointed. I'm not saying he or Armstrong didn't dope but i think everyone out there should be given the benefit of doubt before the actual facts are officially released not heresay and rumors.

I posted this a while back, but is relevant again (T/E ratio usage) and statistical inference. It talks more of the need for a baseline of the popluation for T/E testing to be valid. It is a statistics paper, but not that technical:

"Wonderfully modern technological advances in the laboratory should not be marred by erroneous statistical interpretations. In the short term, the bar for urinalysis of testosterone doping must be set much higher (T/E much higher than 6). The threshold should be determined in light of the number of athletes to be tested, pegged to the number of false positives that are acceptable to society, and based on the limitations of current laboratory methods. If the sizes of current databases are too small to allow for good estimates of proportions above large thresholds, then the laboratory test should be suspended until such information becomes available."

AndroGel is not a patch, it is a gel that is applied to the upper arm and shoulder. It's effect IS felt within minutes of applying.

Yes she challenged the validity of the test for women, particularly those using OCPs, however that was overturned because the rules said that you weren't allowed to challenge the test. Note that the test now isn't regarded as a definitive and a endocrine screening is required, pretty much in line with what Slaney was saying. Her legal challenge went nowhere because the court found that it lacked jurisdiction, basically the merits of the case were never considered! As I recall the T/E threshold was kept at 6 when the threshold for men was reduced to 4.

LNDD Director Makes False Claims About IRMS

The director of the LNDD, the lab where Landis tested positive has apparently issued a false claim about the accuracy of the isotope ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS) test. LNDD head Jacques De Ceaurriz said the isotope testing procedure was "foolproof," adding that "no error is possible in isotopic readings." (source)

While the IRMS is a definitive test certainly, unlike the T/E ratio test, it is subject like every scientific test to various errors and mistake. While the likelihood of error from the IRMS test is, if properly performed, dramatically lower than that from the T/E ratio, that likelihood is most certainly not zero.

It should naturally be asked why the director of a scientific lab would make false claims that any scientist could see through. One should hope that we are not seeing in action another abuse of an American coming out of a French lab with a history of unethical practices. The LNDD lab is the same that unfairly targeted former Tour champion Lance Armstrong according to the UCI in a report issued in March.