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crator
3000m - 5000m training 5/19/2006 3:39PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Hi there!

After 2 years without improvement on the 1500m (3.53 - 2003), and very little running this winter due to lots of schoolwork, I want to move up a little to the 3 and 5000m.

It's now been 2 months and 1 week since I started training well. The first month I only did long, slow runs. After that I also started doing some tempo-runs, but I mainly kept running long and slow.

Now I'd like to know what are some typical good workouts for this distance. 2 weeks ago I did this workout: 5x 1000m with 200m jog as rest. My times were: 2'59", 3'02", 3'03", 3'02", 3'02". I thought that with this workout, I should be able to run just above 15' in competition. But I only ran 15'45", and can't even run under 9' for 3k! (9'11")

What could I do to improve these times? I understand that I shouldn't expect too much yet, but I think I'm worth more than these times show..

I think I run around 80-90 km/week (8-9 runs), with a peak of 120 km 4 weeks ago.

I hope that maybe you guys can help me a bit? Anyway, thanks for reading this :-)


Grtz, Tim
not as good
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/19/2006 3:48PM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
i've never run close to 15:00, but i would think you need to be a little more patient to let the work you've been doing kick in. if your mileage was very low this winter, then 2 mos isnt enough time for good training to kick in. see where you are after 6 mos and i bet you'll be doing those k's in 2:50-55 and sub 15:00.
lebron
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/19/2006 4:21PM - in reply to not as good Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
it really takes at least a few months of solid base work to run a solid 3k or 5k. i would focus on gradually increasing your mileage over the next month while mixing in tempo runs and a few longer distance workouts. once you have a bigger base in another month or so and can run that 1k workout comfortably with splits under 3 flat, id say youre probably ready to go under 15
garygilmore
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/19/2006 5:03PM - in reply to lebron Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
you have to do more than 5 repeats of 1000m...6-8 should be the standard, 8 at about your present 5k pace, and 6 at goal pace towards the end of the season...

6-8x800 at 3k pace will also help the 5k training, and getting familiar with the faster pace running...

hope this helps
virgil
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/19/2006 7:13PM - in reply to garygilmore Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Bro - get yourself a copy of anything by Arthur Lydiard. Get away from the anaerobic work for a while, do some real miles, and reap the rewards. 80km a week is never going to get you down close to 8mins or near 14. Spend some time building your base.
Mtn Dew
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/19/2006 7:21PM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I agree you need to let your training work. I've known guys that don't have 1500ms PRs like you but have run in the 14:30 range. You're at about 4:10 for the mile and only ran 5:03 pace for 5k. A decently trained athlete ought to run about 40 seconds slower per mile going from mile to 5k and a well trained athlete ought to be 30 seconds or better. Geb was about 16 seconds slower per mile from the mile (1500m) to 5k.

Do more mileage and let it set in. You have the speed to do it you just need to let your mileage work for you. Don't rush it. You ought to be able to run about 8:20 and 14:30 or better within a year or so if you train right and maybe even faster.
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/20/2006 3:00AM - in reply to Mtn Dew Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Okay, thanks all for the reply's.

I guess I should try to stay patient, and just do more miles. It is kind of frustrating though, because I've never run this much, and it seemed to work for the 1500. But I have to admit that my best track seasons were after a very decent xc-season, and now I had to try to build up from almost zero..
I'll also try to read more about it (like Lydiard), this is interesting.

Also, what would be better: run 45' twice a day, of 1h30 at once? Or should I try 45' & 1h-1h15 when I run twice a day?
Brew102
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 5/20/2006 7:17AM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
In the early stage of the cycle, after base work is completed, I would really focus on targeting your training toward your eventual goal, running your target pace. For about 8 weeks, I would do (2) hard workouts a week and 1 long run. For intervals (Tues) stuff such as 10x400M reps (near full recovery @ 3min) at goal pace say 4 weeks; then 4 weeks of 10-12 x 500M at faster than goal pace (i.e. 3K pace if working towards a 5K).

For tempo work (Fri), start out doing 40 min at aerobic threshold pace (HMP to MP) working down toward 20 min AT.

Then in the last 4-5 weeks leading to your goal race I would do Interval work in the form of:

2x400M at 1500M pace + 4x1000M at goal pace (3 min rest) + 2x400M at 1500M pace. (Tue)

4x2000M (3 min rest) at 10K pace. (Fri)

In the last few weeks, your primary workout should be something along the lines of 5 x 1000M (1 min rest) at goal pace. If you can hit your goal times in this workout, that should give you pretty good confidence leading to your competition.

Peace.
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 6:08PM - in reply to Brew102 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Okay, I'm getting desperate here.. I don't know what to do any more! It's almost been 3 months since I started rebuilding, and here's an overview of the races I have run since:

15/04: 3000m - 09:13
30/04: 5000m - 15:46
14/05: 3000m - 09:11
21/05: 5000m - 16:02
25/05: 1500m - 04:01
06/06: 3000m - 09:11

I just can't understand how this can be possible. I'm now at 120-130 km for the last 2 weeks, almost always running slow. Last week for example, I ran 11 times, of which only the 1500m and a road race over 12km (27/05 - 40:30) were faster. All other running was done at HR's of about 130 (11-12 km/h).

How could it be that I'm able to run a decent 1500m off of this, but 3000/5000 just won't improve?

I also did a lab-test on 18/05, and they said I should do my easy running at HR 140-150; but I don't find that very easy running. It's not hard either (HR150 = about 14km/h), but if I'm not paying attention, I just slow down and my HR (and the pace) drops. Would it be better to stick at 130-135?

This week I tried to do 2 track workouts, and my speed is almost nihil right now: my coach had me doing 3x 300m w/1min recovery, and I couldn't get the times below 45", where 41-42" shouldn't be that hard for me.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to ask right now, but I just don't know what training I should be doing? I got a scheme from my coach, but I don't know if it's that good. It has workouts like 3x (4x 200m) in 28" with 1' and 10' recovery, or 10x 300m in 48"-50" with 30" recovery, .. Is this really the stuff I should be doing right now?


To conclude: I've been running pretty high mileage (for me, at least) for the last 3 months, but it hurts to see that my 3k time only dropped by 3 secs in the last 2 months. Lactate testing says that I'm more of a 5000-10000m type, but still everything over 1500m has never worked for me. To prove this, these are my PR's:

400m: 51.85 (2002)
800m: 1:54.37 (2004)
1000m: 2:28.10 (2003)
1500m: 3:53.30 (2003)
3000m: 9:04 (2003)
5000m: 15:46 (2006, never ran before)

I think my 800-1500m times are pretty good (would've liked to go sub 3:50 though..), and given the test-results (I can give details if anyone is interested?), I'd think it should be "no problem" to get to this level at 3k-5k? (Actually, this calculator (http://run-down.com/statistics/calc.php) lists 3:53 as equivalent to 8:26/14:38, I should be very happy to start with 8:45/15:00...)


Sorry for the long post, and thanks for reading all through it. I hope someone can steer me in the right direction considering my training.. Any other observations/remarks are welcome!

Greetings, Tim
jb3200
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 6:21PM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Yeah your 1500 time is dramatically better than your 3k and 5k... looks like either a mental problem you have with the longer distance or you need to just do some longer repeats or ladders.. like miles or miles and 8's...I have only run 4:08 for 1500..but 5k I have ran 15:18.. and 3k 8:48...
Diggity Dawg
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 6:26PM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Lactate testing "says" you should be a 5/10K runner; Real World testing (races) say you should stick with the 1500. Which do you choose to believe?

If you haven't improved in the 1500, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are in the wrong event, it just means you aren't training properly.
AK-47
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 6:31PM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I have nowhere near your leg speed (2:04 800), but did manage to run low mid-low 15s as an open runner. Patience is your best guide. Just keep putting in the miles.

I think your interval training looks too much like an 800 runner. Try longer intervals at your current pace and work toward goal pace.

Long run (12 - 14 miles) 1X week

Tempo run (3 - 5 miles) every 2 weeks

Intervals at pace every week
1000s - 1600s at 5k pace (3 to 4 miles total)

800s - 1200 m at 3k pace (2.5 to 3.5 miles total)

Shorter intervals at mile pace (you don't have to knock yourself out with these, especially with your natural speed). Just do 1.5 to 2.5 km worth of shorter faster intervals (300s, 400s, 600s @ 1500 m pace) about once a week or two.

Run easy recovery pace on the other days.

You can't keep up a schedule like that forever, maybe 8 or 10 weeks. Then you need to back down and run easier for 4 - 8 weeks to get your base back.

You could knock it down to low 15s by the end of the summer. Keep a good base through the year and you'll be running a minute faster than now by this time next year.
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 6:50PM - in reply to AK-47 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Quote: "I think your interval training looks too much like an 800 runner. Try longer intervals at your current pace and work toward goal pace."

Yes, that's what I think, too! My coach has a few pretty good girls at 800 (2:05-2:07), and also every time someone new comes into his group, he lets everyone do almost the same workouts. I explained to him I wanted to move up in racing distance (I was like the only one running 1500), and he gives me this type of training, and says: "You can do some more 45min-1h runs when you have the time" or something. I really have to ask it every time if I couldn't do some longer workouts (although I've barely done them by now), but he doesn't seem to care all that much..
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 6:54PM - in reply to Diggity Dawg Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Indeed, I still feel I'm more of a 1500m runner than I am a 5k runner.
But the "plan" was to start training properly for 5k, and on the way up, also improving the 1500. Only, the first 3 months haven't been all that succesful (yet?)..
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 7:05PM - in reply to jb3200 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
It could be a mental problem, but after 2k in 6:03 (3:00 + 3:03), I'd expect to be able to pick up the pace, while I'm just slowing down more (3:07).

I'm actually reading the long thread by Hadd ("One approach to distance training") now, only on p12 though, but I remember him saying that the faster runners are not necessarily "thougher", they are just more comfortable running the faster pace, because of their better aerobic base.

Would that mean I should try to get my LT up to 20km/h? If I read my test results correctly, right now it's 17.2 km/h.

And indeed, I also haven't been doing those longer repeats (yet).. I hope to improve on this in the next few weeks, along with some longer tempo's (+/- 35mins), and some more resting before my next race..

I just want to see results too fast I guess?
distanceType S
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/5/2006 7:32PM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
This is pretty simple...stop running long and slow and start running long and fast.

Long slow runs make for long slow runners.
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/6/2006 4:34AM - in reply to distanceType S Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
From now on I'll do my normal runs at 140-150, as they advised me from the test results, and only do my a.m. recovery runs at about 130.
The first few times I tried to run in that zone, it just didn't feel naturally. I had to keep pushing it a little, in order to not let my HR drop, but then I got myself into a pace that would get my HR above 150.. It's like too slow to be fast, but too fast to be slow :-)

I'll try to post my feelings/improvements in a few weeks.
jba
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/6/2006 6:33AM - in reply to crator Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
"Would that mean I should try to get my LT up to 20km/h? If I read my test results correctly, right now it's 17.2 km/h."

17,2 km = 4,78 m/s

this is quite low for a good 3k/5k runner. runners in my training group can do 9:15-9:30 with vL3 = 4,8 m/s. you seem to be good intervall trained.

try to elevate your LT. first step would be 5 m/s and you should see your race times dropping a bit. also racing will feel more comfortable. to run 9:00 with your LT you have to walk through a sea of acid and pain, but reaching 5,5 m/s (20 km/h) will take a long time...

i am wondering that you are racing although you are doing unused high mileage. i would be fatigued all the time until i am used to the higher mileage.

decreasing your race distance makes your LT less important.

jba
otter
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/6/2006 7:10AM - in reply to virgil Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

virgil wrote:

Bro - get yourself a copy of anything by Arthur Lydiard. Get away from the anaerobic work for a while, do some real miles, and reap the rewards. 80km a week is never going to get you down close to 8mins or near 14. Spend some time building your base.


Exactly. Red flag warning. You want to move up to racing a longer distance with no base. The speedwork will not stick without the base.
crator
RE: 3000m - 5000m training 6/6/2006 7:46AM - in reply to jba Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I think I'm not really tired because I'm running so slow in my normal runs (about 11kmh / 8:45/mile)? And I'm trying to use the races as a way of testing improvement; and it's also a way to keep me focussed. If I don't have a race to look out to, it's easier to skip a run..

As I said above, from now on I'll do my normal runs at higher paces, closer to 14kmh / sub 7:00/mile.

I do have noticed, that after something like 6 weeks, with the same HR, for the same distance, I was running at 13.8 kmh instead of 12.3 kmh, an improvement by 1.5kmh! But then I started doing my runs at lower HR's to keep running that slow, instead of staying at this HR, and just running faster.

Anyway, I've built up to ~130km/week now, running slow, and now I think I should try to keep that mileage, but again running at the normal paces?
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