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| SP3 |
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Could anybody refer me to some links regarding this subject? I know this is kind of a gray area, but I would like to read some thoughts on the issue. Doesn't Hadd say something like Marathon Pace is usually somewhere around 15-20 beats below max for most well trained runners? |
| Pete |
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This was discussed a while back here: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=647701&page=0 The short answer is that average HR for the marathon in an aerobically well-trained runner will be about 88-90% HRmax. Note it won't stay constant at that HR, but will more probably rise gradually throughout, hit HRavg somewhere around the half and then keep climbing a little, although this may vary, especially if you run out of fuel (hit the wall), in which case it will go down, or if there is wind or hills, in which case it's likely to be erratic. Here are some real live data for seven real runners as examples. Note, these data haven't been filtered to get rid of average HR out of the 88-90% range, these happen to be all the numbers I have. A couple of friends have told me their average HR was much lower than 88% of HRmax, but I don't have actual numbers for them to share. Joe A: HRmax - 184 HRavg for marathon - 161 (88% of HRmax) Time - 3:01 (2:59 PR) fast twitch muscle guy Joe B: HRmax - 182 2004 HRavg for marathon - 159 (87%) Time - 2:48 (2:45 PR) 2005 HRavg for marathon – 161 (88.5%) Time – 2:46:41 fast twitch Joe C: HRmax - 200 HRavg for marathon - 178 (89%) Time - 2:42 (half minute PR) slow twitch muscle guy Joe D: HRmax - 170 HRavg for marathon - 148 (87%) Time - 3:31 (3:23 PR) slow twitch Joe E: HRmax - 190 HRavg - 169 (89%) time - 2:31 (previous PR 2:55, but HM PR 1:11) Joe F: HRmax - 185 HRav - 166 (89.7%) 2:57 (4 min PR) Joe G: HRmax - 182 HRav - 161 (88.5%) 3:08 (PR 2:59) |
| SP3 |
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Pretty interesting stuff Pete, thanks. I was thinking MP pace would probably fall into the 85-90% range. 88% seems almost dead on for most runners. My Max is somewhere @ 178 and I have found that I feel I breach my true aerobic state right near 155-156. I have a half marathon coming up and it will be interesting to see where I am at. Going to run it as a training run at MP. |
| beschmi |
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Just got 8 weeks of base training in (60-75 mpw) and i'm just starting with some faster aerobic stuff. I noticed that after 50 minutes at 80-85% HRav (where i run around my planned MP) my heartrate gets higher and I have to slow down a lot. I still got 17 weeks up to my marathon and have planned to do 3 more weeks of base, then 4 weeks hills followed by 10 weeks with mainly 3k/5k/10k timetrials (lydiard running to the top marathon schedule). In my last marathons I had to slow down a lot from mile 20 on. So i'm wondering if I should extend my base phase until I can hold this heartrate for longer and shorten the hill phase/sharpening? |
| F. Franks |
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I have a 177 max and raced at 158, rising to 162 at the end, of a recent marathon. End result was a 3:09 PR That means 89 percent of max, rising to 91 percent. In the final miles I bonked and HR fell to mid 150s. Pace dropped by over a minute per mile. Most of the material I've read suggests the range I tried to stick to is too high ... that Coach Benson character advises that 85 percent of max is the far end of what's sustainable for a marathon. I do tend to fade in the final miles ... likely from this very problem ... so I will do my next one at something like 155 to 159. Good thread for HR geeks. |
| KudzuRunner |
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I'm surprised at the 88-90% figure, frankly. The figures you cite are averages over the duration of the event; I suspect that you'd find that the first half of well-run marathons are run somewhat below that, with the last six miles run at something closer to half marathon pace. Here's why I'm skeptical: HR at half-marathon pace then becomes what? If marathon HR is 88-90%, half marathon is....? 91-93%? Which makes 10K HR what? About that same as 5K pace: 95%. That doesn't work. The whole point of skilled marathon racing is to know the difference between marathon pace and half marathon pace. Assuming an athlete who runs 1:25 for the half and 3:00 for the whole (two different races), both races are run below LT. The half marathon is run just a shade below LT; the marathon is run a few shades below. I suspect that a runner who skims your stats and decides to set his early pace at, say, 89% of max in his next marathon is in for an ugly surprise. I think that is half marathon pace. (I think the stats you've accumulated can be explained by a significant rise over the final six miles as the marathoner who has been cruising at 86-87% of HR max throws everything onto the fire.) Please explain why I'm wrong. |
| Me Again |
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I have run several half marathons at 93-94% of max heart rate, and that is close to my cruising rate as well. Normally I get it up to 93% easily by the second mile, then struggle like mad to keep it at 94% in the final few miles. I've never worn my heart rate monitor in a 10k and only a couple times in a 5k. In the 5k, I would hit 97%+ over the last 2 miles, getting within a couple beats of max in the final sprint. |
| MarathonMind |
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MY MHR is 180 or so. It quickly goes up to 120, and then gradually creeps up towards 150 at MP. By the end of an MP run it is close to 160. I have seen the graphs. This is typical. It will reach a sloped plateau at which it is gradually increasing and at a steady rate of increase. Since 90% of 180 is 162, I would guess that towards the end of a marathon, my heart is at around 165, which is 92% of 180, and as you say the entire race will average 89%- beginning below that rate, and ending above.' You are correct. |
| Pete |
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Here are the mile splits for three of the races I mentioned earlier. You can figure out which Joe is who by looking at the finish times. These splits give you a good idea how HR acts throughout the race. It tends to rise gradually throughout, as I said earlier, hitting the average HR somewhere near the middle of the race. The second guy ran out of fuel pretty hard late in the race, and you'll see his HR actually went down toward the end. Noone should set out to hit the average marathon HR right from the gun, because that's a sure way to die a long and painful death. Mile 1 - 6:24 (165) Mile 2 - 6:06 (174) Mile 3 - 6:08 (173) Mile 4 - 5:59 (175) Mile 5 - 6:08 (175) Mile 6 - 6:16 (175) Mile 7 - 5:59 (175) Mile 8 - 6:24 (176) Mile 9 - 6:07 (176) Mile 10 - 6:15 (176) Mile 11 - 6:09 (177) Mile 12 - 5:58 (177) Mile 13 - 6:06 Halfway in 80:37 Mile 14 - 6:07 (178) Mile 15 - 6:11 (178) Mile 16 - 6:14 (176) Mile 17 - 6:20 (177) Mile 18 - 6:18 (176) Mile 19 - 6:23 (176) Mile 20 - 6:20 (178) Mile 21 - 6:14 (178) Mile 22 - 6:15 (181) Mile 23 - 6:06 (181) Mile 24 - 6:07 (182) Mile 25 - 6:14 (184) Mile 26 and a bit - 7:22 (187) Finish - 2:42.09 Mile.......Split Time........HRend.......HRavg.......HRmax..........HRmin 1 ............8:11.................145............140 ...........146 .............100 2 ............8:09.................142............145............149..............140 3/4..........8:09.(avg.).........146............143............147..............136 5.............7:42.................145............147............149..............144 6.............8:06.................148............146............149..............140 7.............8:34.................150............144............151..............105 8.............7:37.................152............152............154..............149 9.............7:47.................149............152............154..............148 10...........7:39.................147............151............153..............147 11...........7:46.................152............148............153..............144 12...........8:01.................151............148............152..............144 13...........7:50.................153............150............153..............148 14...........7:52.................151............150............155..............145 15/16......7:45.(avg.).........155............152............155..............147 17...........7:52.................152............153............156..............149 18...........7:59.................150............150............153..............141 19...........7:51.................154............152............155..............149 20...........8:00.................149............153............156..............149 21...........8:15.................150............149............153..............144 22...........8:18.................147............148............152..............144 23...........8:17.................150............149............153..............146 24...........8:35.................147............147............151..............143 25...........8:37.................145............145............148..............143 26...........8:48.................145............145............148..............141 26.22......1:42.(7:44 pace).156............150............156..............145 Mile 1 - 7:13 152 Mile 2 - 6:55 157 Mile 3 - 6:58 158 Mile 4 - 6:53 157 Mile 5 - 6:58 159 Mile 6 - 6:57 158 10K 43:25 Mile 7 - 7:02 157 Mile 8 - 6:59 157 Mile 9 - 7:05 157 15K 1:05:17 Mile 10 - 7:00 156 Mile 11 - 6:53 156 Mile 12 - 7:00 157 20K 1:26:58 Mile 13 - 7:01 156 1/2 marathon 1:31:43 Mile 14 - 6:52 159 Mile 15 - 6:44 160 Mile 16 - 6:50 161 Mile 17 - 6:51 162 Mile 18 - 6:45 162 Mile 19 - 6:53 162 Mile 20 - 6:50 162 For the last six miles I'll include the max HR as well. Mile 21 - 6:56 163 166 Mile 22 - 6:42 165 169 Mile 23 - 6:48 164 166 Mile 24 - 6:59 162 165 Mile 25 - 6:59 162 170 Mile 26 - 6:49 167 176 Mile .2 - 1:22 174 184 Finish 3:01:24 Second half 1:29:41 |
| Pete |
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I can add one more. This one's me - the only one I have HR data for: 6:13.1 @ ?? 6:05.7 @ ??/142 5:47.0 @ 140(avg)/142(end) 6:15.6 @ 140/148 5:54.7 @ 143/146 6:01.8 @ 144/144 6:06.8 @ 143/145 6:09.0 @ 142/142 6:10.9 @ 145/151 5:55.5 @ 146/144 6:00.0 @ 144/139 6:03.2 @ 145/142 11:57.4 @ 146/145 6:12.1 @ 147/149 6:03.6 @ 147/149 5:59.7 @ 148/147 6:08.7 @ 148/151 6:06.4 @ 149/149 6:11.1 @ 148/150 6:08.8 @ 150/151 6:22.5 @ 149/148 6:33.7 @ 148/147 6:41.9 @ 146/143 6:49.3 @ 145/146 7:16.1 @ 146/146 0:47.4 @ 150/153 2:42:03 (was at the half at around 1:19:20 give or take, so moderate fade) Average HR was about 147. My HRmax is about 166, so that's about 88.6%. I hit the wall a bit, and you can see my HR fades a little toward the end. |
| Pete |
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That is something you can change with training. My max is 166 and I generally find 148-152ish is very comfy but strong aerobic running that I can run for 60-75 minutes feeling good. |
| liffiker |
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An important point regarding % max, whether HR or VO2, is that it depends a good deal on how fast you are. What % of max you run at is more dependent upon duration of the race than distance. For example, a runner who goes 2:10 for a half marathon will be working about the same % as the faster runner who races a full marathon in 2:10 -- both were putting out for the same duration of time. So, you can't conclude that for everyone there is a particular % max HR at which they should or can run for a marathon, |
| Pete knows |
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Mr KudzuRunner, here's what you (apparently) don't know. From experience, best possibles: HRAvMarathon is 89-90% HRmax (flat graph) HRAvHalfMarathon is 92-93% HRmax (mainly flat graph with rise in final mile(s)) HRAv10k is 96% HRmax (rising graph due to being above LT) In the final laps of 5k race, expect to be within 2-3 beats of HRmax (steep rising graph due to being well above LT) If you cannot achieve these, look to your training. |
| Pete |
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I don't believe this is true. I'd have to mine the data I have pretty hard to prove you wrong unequivocally, but by glancing at the marathon data I've shown you, which ranges from 2:31 to 3:39, you can see there is absolutely no correlation with time on feet (ie pace), but rather the percentage is pretty much set for the distance, presuming one is well trained, aerobically. I've dug through a bit of data for other race distances and can offer the following additional data points (these are data from eight different runners with 5k times ranging between about 15 flat and 20 minutes): 5K: 97.5%, 98.6%, 95%, 95.3% (note these are individual race results) 8k: 92.8% 10k: 92.5% HM: 93.1%, 86.3%, 90.4%, 92%, 91.7%, 96.4% If you keep in mind that this is a VERY SMALL sample size, and that these different runners were at different levels of fitness, you can get some idea of the general trend for average HR at various race distances. I could add another few dozen races to this data, but frankly I don't have the time to play with the numbers. |
| Pete |
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In particular, the 8k and 10k numbers shouldn't be taken as representative, since they were both poor races. If I added more data (which I don't have time to do), you'd see the average HRavg for these distances would be much higher than the single results I've posted. |
| Logic |
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Pete, How are you calculating the maximum heart rate of these people. I know alot of people who use a formula but I don't think its that easy or consistent. (i.e. I'm in my mid 30's and get my heart rate up to just over 200 which i"m not suppose to be able to do) Do you use a formula or do you individually test each person. And if so how? I agree that it appears to be between 85% and 90% of MHR in well trained athletes but I would guess the range is even smaller but that real MHR is not precisely measured. For half marathons I thinks in the low 90's (90-93%) range. Thanks Logic |
| Pete |
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These are data from people I know who've shared training info with me. They have determined their own HRmax through basic tests on their own, and have generally confirmed the values during races (ie. toward the end of 5k races they'll see very close to HRmax). Of course there's some subjectivity involved, but not a whole lot. |
| zest |
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Pete, I think the Max HR figures you give are slightly underestimated, and also, dehydration towards the end of the races is a factor in the figures you have shown. |
| Joe E |
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Hey Pete! Since I seem to be one of your runners here's the stats from my marathon (which was actually closer to 2:32 than 2:31). Cheers >Race report. First the splits and HR averages, with some comments of what I was thinking during the race: Mile 1: 5.52.1 HR165 missed the 2 mile mark (without my glasses it was hard to pick out the markers in crowded spectator areas) Mile 2-3: 11:08.6 HR171 (whoa! Too excited! Slow down! Slow down!) Mile 4: 5.28.0 HR169 (Damn, still too fast! downhill.) missed the 5 mile mark Mile 5-6: 11:48.9 HR165 (much better, into a 10mph headwind) Mile 7: 5.56.8 HR162 (hooked up with three other runners, tailwind) Mile 8: 5.58.0 HR163 (uphill) Mile 9: 5.49.2 HR166 (tailwind) Mile 10: 5.38.2 HR162 (slight downhill, tailwind) Mile 11: 5.45.2 HR165 Mile 12: 5.47.1 HR164 Mile 13: 5.51.6 HR162 Halfway: 1.15.39 Mile 14: 5.41.1 HR165 Mile 15: 5.53.9 HR170 (big uphill!) Mile 16: 5.55.0 HR171 (still big hill + headwind) Mile 17: 5.45.2 HR170 (headwind) missed 18 Mile 18-19: 11.18.6 HR170 (out of the wind) Mile 20: 5.40.9 HR173 Mile 21: 5.51.9 HR172 (starting to feel legs) Mile 22: 5.46.0 HR172 Mile 23: 5.48.5 HR173 Mile 24: 5.53.1 HR173 (getting a little dizzy) Mile 25: 5.52.2 HR172 (really hard to stay on the course, little wobbly) Mile 26: 6.05.1 HR171 (all I want to do is stop!) Finish: 1.21.4 (6.47 pace) HR171. 2.31.57 (1.16.18 2nd half) |
| Pete |
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I'll admit this is probably true for one or two of the runners. Looking back through some of the details, a guy with an estimated HRmax (his estimate) of 199 actually saw 202-203 in some of his races, so actual HRmax would be more like 205, give or take. About five of the results were his, and they include the highest 5k and HM numbers, so you could probably drop the highest numbers by a couple of percentage points. This stuff wasn't based on a scientific study, remember, it's just personal data. Any data will have some error associated with it. I was just sharing this stuff to give you some sense of real (approximate) numbers to add some context to the discussion. Joe E - when will you be having another go at cracking 2:30, dude? |
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