van aaken

My training goals have had to change. I made several mistakes in my youth. I trained far too hard and never did enough mileage. I also allowed myself to lose conditioning several times. As you age it is a great deal harder to get it back and it is much easier to get injured. I sill want to complete a marathon. After the first one, I would like to hit a time that is twice my best time of 2:30. I then would like to qualify for Boston but not run it. These are big goals in the back of my mind. I envy Ed Whitlock his great genes. I guess I have to be satisfied with having done my best running in my 20s and 30s.

I do not think one has a personal slow down rate. The less you do the harder it will be as you age. My advice to make every effort to lose as little conditioning as possible. Don't get greedy and enjoy. As we all know goals also make a world of differencet. Igloi always said "must have big goals".

In that case I guess we are at opposite ends of the sphere. I was always told that I do not train hard enough. Bill Bowerman tried to convince me to become a miler- he considered my 5-5:30 per km running as less than jogging. My his reasoning if I was able to run sub 4:05 on that training with correct training I could run well. I have the utmost respect for him, but I hated the track and the only thing worse than than the mile was the steeplechase. I wholeheartly agree with the getting out of shape part. It now takes so long to get back and we (those of us who remember seeing the Beatles live) lose interest when we have to try another comeback. To me just writing about these goals is the start of getting them accomplished. Best of luck in your quest to be the best you can be.

You mentioned Igoi- did you train under him or use his teachings? I found him to be an interesting individual (like Cerruity- on and off the track). I also agree with the goals statement. I often use the "he/she can who thinks they can". Many coaches/athletes feel the added pressure of announcing to God and the world that "I will ..." helps them. Pre was of this mold. I cannot speak of others, but Lydiard appeared to come from the same belief. To many this comes off cocky Ali with "I am the greatest" was an mystique that was spoken. In the boxing world (if you are under 40- this will go over your head), indiviudals such as Sonny Liston (his quiet rage before a fight) or Rubin Hurricane Carter (even his muscles had muscles) used demeanor rather than talk to accomplish the same. This can happen in the local scene. A few years ago I was dating a young lady who was very in shape, but not a runner. She wanted to run a local race with me. So I gave her an old USA warmup uniform to warmup in- well all of the local ladies were wondering who this hotshot out of towner was (a few pulled me aside and I played along as if she could run). Some even towed the line next to her (field of about 75- all on the first two rows). The gun goes off and my girlfriend (first race ever) takes off and there are a string of local runners right on her. Now these locals were of the 17:30-18:30 type- all waiting for her to make a move. The move came around 300 where she stopped and puked the meal she had eaten about 20 minutes before the race. Bottom line is when you talk the talk society will try to help you make it. Well it is almost time for my morning run.

Vladimir, what was your mileage (estimate)back then when you ran most of your runs at 5-5:30/km and running marathon at 3:15/km? That would be almost unbelievable, unless you were some kind of aerobic monster, what you probably are, given your mile PR of off that training.

For my part, I never really got away from things and have had quite a slide anyway. The closest I've come to letting it go, mileage-wise, was dropping to 80-90mpw from the 100-140 I usually did. At first, I went a little faster on the lowered volume. But then I started slowing and nothing reversed it, including stretches of time when I went back to the 100-140s.

As time went on, I think I exacerbated the process by racing less frequently, partly because races had changed from being venues where I saw myself improve to venues where I saw myself decline, which is generally less fun.

Now, I don't know how bad things would be if I'd just stopped running for 10 years or so. I might be more morivated to race now had I done that simply because I'd have come back with no expectations.

I also wonder what would happen if I went back to the 100-140 stuff for two or three years rather than for six months, which is about the longest I've sustained really big volumes in the last 25 years.

On the other hand, I get hammered at races frequently by people who do about half of what I currently do. So I also wonder if I'd be better off running even less than I do now.

I'm not sure what the point to all this is other than to suggest that there are no automatic answers.

For the most part I stayed around 250-300 per week. We also did quite a few races (from 400 on up) just for fun. I do not think I ever reached my peak (not due to Dr. but because of things I did or did not do). I do not think anyone should be surprised in these times with the training, but I question why more do not put in the training to exceed these times. Look at the fast volumne that Dave Bedford put in or the laid back running attitude of Bob Denies and Ted Corbitt. A easy sport, it just takes hard work.

I trained with Igloi from the time of the 1964 Olympics until the fall of 1966. He was my coach and friend and he was interesting. He did much for the sport.

There is much more about those days on the Mihaly Igloi thread that was started by dc449 on 6-5-04 on this board Thelre is even a post by Bob Schul. Maybe it is time to bring it to the front page.

I ran my best marathons while training 55 to 75 miles a week. I knew Bob Deines and now wished I had gone his route when it comes to training.

I met him once in the 60's I did run for a short period of time with one of his pupils in Southern California (cannot recall the name, but will when someone else bring it up)- I was not cut out for the amount of speed he felt was required- good system for you and others, but not for me. Bob was very laid back (even for a southern ca boy). He was a terror on the roads, but just seemed to slip away (not sure if lost interest, injured or what happened). It is too bad that most of my peers and idols are deceased or no longer running!

I assume that you trained with Laszlo Tabori, Merle McGee or Joe Douglas. Who were your peers and idols? I may have come across them also.

I don't want to stop this very interesting discussion, but the name Bob Deines caught my eye.

I've been very interested in his training since reading a reprint of Joe Henderson's LSD and Ron Daws first book.

Bob,

If you go to Joe's website, joehenderson.com, you can read it for yourself. Joe has the whole LSD book at the site.

"Dale" basically did a daily run of two hours at about an eight minute pace and on the weekend extended that to three hours as a rule. He did race pretty frequently.

I just thumbed through Joe Henderson's LSD book. Deienes found a good way, for him, to train very young. It is outlined there. Bob then came 6th in Boston twice with a best of 2:22:49 there and then moved up to ultras. He was USA 50 mile champion in 5:15:20 in 1970.

What I find interesting is that that same method of training works and at all ages. An example now is Ed Whitlock who is way ahead of his peers.

Orville Atkins wrote:

I assume that you trained with Laszlo Tabori, Merle McGee or Joe Douglas. Who were your peers and idols? I may have come across them also.

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Did these guys use Igloi's approach exclusively or did they modify it? Any ideas?

I recall that Johnny Gray, the great 800m runner, trained under McGee. Is that right? If so, any info about what they did for training?

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Vladimir? Did you basically do just distance work or were you doing speed within your training program when you ran 4:05 for the mile?

Yes, I looked it up and as soon as I saw the posting today - confirmed that the mind is one of the first things to go. It was Laszlo. I tried the system and it did not appeal to me as much as untimed or running for time without the concern of how far I covered. This fit well into my mind set (or lack of the same). I am still there- for example today I ran for 93:12 (dropped off my car for an oil change). I will go pick it up and try to hit the exact time (without checking my watch for splits)- yes a simple game for a simple person.

First let me clarify that I am speaking in km so I was really only running 150-186 miles a week. Yes, I was doing distance with some pickups at the end. I always liked to finish my workouts on the track with a measured distance. To this day when I move I try to find a house within 800 of a track- drove my wife crazy. I also measure from my house 400;800;1600;2000 in every direction and mark it. We would also play some speed games- car poker was one- you would pick a color of a car and once you saw that color you had to pick up the pace to 10k and the second one to 5k at the third one to 1500 and at the forth one to 800, at the fifth one you were in an all out sprint until the sixth one. You only did this once in a workout, but sometimes it could be very hard. Best done alone as you can drop or be dropped very quickly. Time to swim.

Only 150-186 a week.

I knew that you meant kilometers in your earlier post.

Recently reread part of Manfred Steffny's Marathoning book, circa late 70's. He mentions that a runner under 70K, 154 lbs, might be able to run a marathon without drinking fluids if trained properly.

He also states that a runner under 65K, 143 lbs, might be able to run a marathon without ingesting calories.

I know these are general statements that may not apply to everyone, but I find them fascinating.

Anyone have any thoughts on the above?

I almost never drink in races and that's always been true. On the few occasions I've tried, I've regretted it.

The most dramatic example of this was at the 1976 Boston Marathon, the hottest one ever. The temperature had been in the 90s for a couple of days beforehand and it was fairly humid as well. That held true for race day. There was a thermometer on the front porch og a house near the starting line that read 116.

I started supercautiously and, unlike in ther races, made a point of drinking a bit, maybe a cup of water every three miles or so. I can't recall exactly.

Caution worked. I worked my way to 77th place, closer to the front than I'd ever been or would be at Boston, by the time we got to Boston College and didn't feel overly drained, but soon after was wracked with stomach cramps and diarehha. I probably should have just let things fly and kept on running, but that option hadn't occured to me, so I stopped at two gas staions and hit the restrooms, dropping to 250somethingth.

I really don't think I needed those drinks and I know I wouldn't have had the cramping problems had I not taken them. I've found that if the heat is bothering me so much that I need to drink, I'm already cooked.

I did not mean that as being wise- sometimes I forget that when the USA went metic - I was the only one who took them serious. I also never took liquids when I raced. If you remmeber back in the dark ages of running there were no refreshment stands during races- so many of us old timers never got into the mode. In the early stages of drinks gatorade and EKG were the first ones and Shorter used defizzed coke (or pepsi) during his marathons. Now keep in mind that when I was racing I was under 50 kilo.