HEPS 2012 INDOOR

Further: as I understand it, Cornell has some sickness on the team. It's possible that any distancemen with a shot at scoring were under the weather.

in the 3k, Cornell men had *no one* who could have scored... take a look at the ivy league list on tfrrs.com and it is pretty bleak for Cornell. On the 5k, they had two in *possible* scoring range, but to make Cornell's Mens Heps team, you have to be top 6 Ivy, or REALLY close due to the 33 limit. On tfrrs.com, you can see McCullough and Kelly were 7 & 8, but would most likely have been single event entries for *maybe* a point, unless Rojo decided they could benefit the DMR... Not a distance guru, but I can't see a 5k runner being overly effective in the DMR. The only other reason I could have seen Cornell including a 5k guy would be to try and take points away from Princeton, which while not impossible, would have been difficult.

As a CU alum, it's startling that there is so little depth in the distances. P-ton won the meet exactly as another poster alluded to, by doubling and tripling their elite runners.

P-ton may have an edge in recruiting from name and location. Still that can't be the only factor, it's a very hard pill to swallow, especially given the mediocre success in CUXC over the past 15 years. I know the CU team is training hard once the runners are there. We get great recruits in other events. There MUST be a way to get good distance recruits to Ithaca year in and out to round out our squads...

lease wrote:

Further: as I understand it, Cornell has some sickness on the team. It's possible that any distancemen with a shot at scoring were under the weather.

Further further!

If I read the results correctly, of the 33 men Cornell entered, 30 scored.

The exceptions were a pole vaulter who came into the meet with a top-six mark, got injured (it seems?) at some point, and finished seventh;

a 400 man who came into the meet with a top-six time, finished eighth in the prelims, and missed the relays on Day II (possibly from injury/illness?);

and a heptathlete who came in with a top-six mark, had one bad event that cost him about 150 points, and finished seventh, about 70 points away from scoring.

[Even though the League's performance list was largely rewritten by the marks in the Heps meet itself, each of those three guys *still* has a seasonal top-six mark in his event.]

Cornell seems to have kept a couple (mid-)distance guys just to be fresh for the relays, which paid off pretty well (esp. in the 4x800). All in all, I've gotta think that they made pretty good decisions about scoring potential, even if their distance guys were healthy and available; they had 33 other guys with better chances to score.

Sure, if the squad limit were, say, 50, then they could have put a half-dozen decent distance runners in (they had four at 8:26 or better in the 3,000, four at 14:41 or better in the 5,000). They also could have put in a couple more 400 guys, hurdlers, horizontal jumpers, throwers, and heptathletes--all with at least an outside chance to score--and maybe run a couple more guys completely fresh in the relays.

But that's the nature of a 33-man limit.

Definitely. I think everyone would agree that if the Ivy league dropped the team limit, or went to a qualification standard system and scored more then 6 places, Cornell's depth would very possibly translate into major wins. They have more guys in that 7-10 range on the all-Ivy list then any other team.

Oops. That 400m runner was ninth, not eighth, in the prelims.

Was there always a 33-man limit at Heps? I don't recall it being in place in the 80s but then again we never had to worry about it as we scored so few points as it was...

shazzuy wrote:

Definitely. I think everyone would agree that if the Ivy league dropped the team limit, or went to a qualification standard system and scored more then 6 places, Cornell's depth would very possibly translate into major wins. They have more guys in that 7-10 range on the all-Ivy list then any other team.

Of course, good coaches plan for the meets they actually run, not the hypothetical ones. If the system were to change, I would bet that the winning coach would likewise change his strategy to keep winning. It's just like the super bowl this year; I was thinking that if Brady and Manning played one on one, the Patriots would win. See how stupid it sounds?

Here's some more data on the improvement in the Heps - it seems to have really started with this year's juniors, the class of '13, and then taken off with the 14er's.

One sees this by noting that this year's seniors are underrepresented in this year's (almost final) performance lists.

Here a list of the number of seniors in this year's top 18 - I figure someone in that range has at least a shot at scoring next year. We'll just use NCAA events to make it easier

Event Men/Women

60m 2/4

200m 3/4

400m 7/3

800m 2/5

Mile 4/7

3000 5/3

5000 4/3

60mH 2/6

HJ 3/2

PV 7/3

LJ 4/4

TJ 3/2

SP 2/4

WT 2/3

With an even distribution, there should be 9 seniors (men, women combined) in each event, and only the 400, Mile and pole vault reach that level. And really, seniors should be slightly overrepresented, especially in the technical events, and they're not.

So it's only going to get better. With indoors moving to Harvard's fast track next year, and with what undoubtedly will another strong class joining Heps, the quality of the performances should continue to rise.

I'm not sure I agree with throwing the seniors under the bus, at least on the men's side. You have to remember that distance running is the Ivy League's forte, and it is these events where the league actually stacks up well with the nation.

Though the stats may point to underrepresentation of seniors in the top 18, I think the senior class has some very heavy hitters that make them a big part of what has brought HEPS competition level up.

Speaking as a distance runner, it is hard to overlook the fact that the 2012 Ivy senior class has 3 XC All-Americans in Lowry, Cabral, and Leung. HEPS xc saw 5 seniors in the top 5 this year. Merber is one of only a handful of Ivy runners to ever break 4:00 mile. A number of All-Time Ivy League records on the track are held by current seniors as well.

I think you misunderstood my point, or at least I wasn't clear enough.

Your point about the quality of this year's senior's actually enhances what I'm trying to say - that even with an extraordinary group of seniors, they are still underrepresented in the top tier of every event except for the Mile.

Heps has always had extraordinary individuals like Cabral or Merber. My point was to show that the conference's depth of quality is rapidly increasing. In term's of group depth, '13 is stronger than '12 and it would seem that '14 is stronger than '13.

Ancient Ivy wrote:

My point was to show that the conference's depth of quality is rapidly increasing.

A quick illustration of this point comes from the three most recent TFRRS performance lists. Two years ago, only three Ivy women broke 4:50 in the mile, during the course of the entire season. (Actually, the fourth-best performer that year was 4:52+.) Last year it was seven. This year, with one major opportunity for improved times yet remaining (the ECAC meet), there are ten.

[Similarly: Two years ago, a five-minute mile made the top-20 performers' list (again, for the entire season). This year, the equivalent of a sub-4:55 is required--with one major meet to go. That's a *lot* of progress in a short period.]

Interestingly, in each of the three years a solid majority of the sub-4:50 performers were juniors and seniors. Of course, we'd expect that: overall, runners "should" progress from their first couple years to the last two. But--unless the coaches have all gotten a lot smarter in the last year or so--it still shows that the raw material that's coming into the League is improving tremendously. "Quality in quantity," as they say...

don't ask wrote:

maybe this was addressed somewhere else in the thread and I didn't see it. Cornell only had one person competing in the mile and 0 in the 3000/5000. Anyone know why?

Gotta look at your strengths and weaknesses as well as the league's strengths and weaknesses.

Cornell's biggest weakness is distance running, which is the league's biggest strength.

One of Cornell's strengths is short sprints, which is the league's biggest weakness.

No sense sending mediocre runners to compete against high-level competition when you can send high-level runners to compete against mediocre competition in other events.

Ok, last chance meets are this weekend (beginning with the Alex Wilson Invite tonight). So far, three athletes have qualified for NCAAs but only two will go as Conor McCullough has ended his indoor season (he only did the weight for team points).

I'm curious on how many other Ivies will make it to NCAAs. Right now, I think I am only really confident that Maalik Reynolds will make it for the high jump as he is ranked 8th and is 1 cm outside of the auto mark. Montez Blair might be one of the last qualifiers for high jump if they expand to 14 athletes...

Other top 25 performances who are also on the bubble:

Men:

Peter Callahan (Princeton): 800m, 26th – 1:48.82 [auto 1:47.30]; mile, 14th – 3:58.76 [auto 3:57.90]

Joe Stilin (Princeton): 3000m, 19th – 7:53.15 [auto 7:52.30]

Donn Cabral (Princeton): 5000m, 11th – 13:45.92 [auto 13:44.60]

David Slovenski (Princeton): pole vault, 16th – 17-7-.25 [auto 18-0.25]

Nico Weiler (Harvard): pole vault, 25th – 17-4.25 [auto 18-0.25]

Stephen Mozia (Cornell): shot put, 12th – 62-8 [auto 63-5.75]

Nick Huber (Cornell): heptathlon, 22nd – 5550 [auto 5750]

Women:

Katie Kellner (Cornell): 5000m, 22nd – 16:11.38 [auto 15:57.00]

Dartmouth DMR, 13th – 11:05.67 [auto 11:03.50]

Princeton DMR, 24th – 11:17.93 [auto 11:03.50]

Tory Worthen (Princeton): pole vault, 24th – 13-6.25 [auto 14-3.25]

Melissa Hewitt (Cornell): long jump, 23rd – 20-4.5 [auto 21-2]

Nadia Eke (Columbia): triple jump, 15th – 42-4.25 [auto 43-7.75]

Does anyone know if Dartmouth DMR will be running this weekend to try to hit the auto?

14 spots are pretty much guaranteed per event, so Mozia and Blair from Cornell are pretty much in. Is it possible they could get bumped down this weekend? Sure, but from my experience at last chance meets, most people don't perform as well for multiple reasons. 1- coming off championship meets and are often tired/emotionally drained 2- extra pressure due to "last chance" can be daunting 3- many coaches "peak" athletes for their conference championships, not this weekend so they might be fighting an uphill battle training-wise.

Last year, each event had 16 athletes, all the relays had at least 10 teams, so as long as we get lots of athletes doubling at nationals, we will see 16 competitors per event.

I'm curious: the HepsTrack website says that Cornell will be sending a DMR to Notre Dame this weekend. Presumably that's the men's squad.

Whom would they use? Same group as last week, except Admirand instead of Wade (who appeared to be injured)? Would it be faster (overall) to have Arnold run the 1200 and Schilkowski the 1600? (I remember when Bowling Green used a two-miler on the 3/4 leg and Wottle on the mile of their NCAA DMR--faster overall.)

Anyway, does anyone at Cornell know whether this is still "on"? With the Big Red's current personnel, it's a little hard to imagine they'd get very close to the NCAA standard (9:31)...

Sorry BRF, but according to the Notre Dame entries, Cornell does not have a DMR... or even anyone from Cornell entered.

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/nd/sports/c-track/auto_pdf/2011-12/release/release_20120301aaa.pdf

In fact, only Princeton's DMR will be the only Ivies at the meet.

14 Princeton A 9:54.11

1) Van Ackeren, Trevor 2) Hopkins, Tom

3) Williams, Michael 4) Callahan, Peter

C/M Runner wrote:

Sorry BRF, but according to the Notre Dame entries, Cornell does not have a DMR... or even anyone from Cornell entered.

In fact, only Princeton's DMR will be the only Ivies at the meet.

14 Princeton A 9:54.11

1) Van Ackeren, Trevor 2) Hopkins, Tom

3) Williams, Michael 4) Callahan, Peter

Nothing to be sorry about, C/M, and thanks for the info! I suppose that Cornell simply put it on the schedule a while back, "just in case."

It does seem to make more sense for them to use their guys at the IC4A meet, where they could do some good scoring. OTOH if things had worked out differently for the Big Red this season, and they were, say, already under 9:40, then I could see the point of getting into a "hot" race.

As it is, I wish the Tigers good luck. That 9:31 is a pretty tough standard...

Princeton is also scheduled for the Columbia Last Chance meet, so the majority of them will probably be there since it is closer and a faster track than Reggie Lewis in Boston.

IC4As/ECAC and Columbia entry sheets should be up this afternoon, so we should be able to find out then who is where and doing what.