Future Star: 1600 in 4:05 at High School Dual Meet

That's "wasn't so bad".

Flagpole wrote:

2) He never lapped me in any race. I wasn't as good as him, but I was so bad as to be lapped in a 3200 by anyone.

I would say I agree with FP. This kid is going to have plenty of chances to run 4:05 or better in a real race were it will actully be exciting for T&F fans to watch. Most everything on this thread shows how little we are teaching kids to become better people. This is a track meet not a practice or a one man showcase. If you are not there to compete don't even go.

Flagpole wrote:

If, as you say, it should be the sole focus of every coach to turn out great character kids, then one of them would not be singled out to the detriment of another.

There's a difference between serving and being a patsy.

They signed up for track and field, not finishing school.

Geez, FP, maybe next time 4:05 guy will help his teammate run a PR. That's how these things go. Having a smokin' fast PR is as legitimate an object to pursue in a race as beating other runners in head-to-head competition. It's sort of like beating them in absentia.

Polyflag wrote:

Guys of course Flagpole is right. Running has nothing to do teamwork. Track and Field is ALL about the competition. Don't get me started on how many of those people go on to be Olympians and don't have the proper competitive spirit because they were trying to do something stupid like, oh I don't know, work on LIFE skills and building character. Isn't everyone going to use running later in life? Surely no one needs to know how to be gracious later in life and help others?

This is why the world is falling apart with egotistical people who seriously believe what they say.

We don't disagree about learning life skills and being gracious brother. We just disagree about what teaches a person those things. I say character is built in track and field by getting your ass handed to you early on and then working your way up so that at some point you are the one handing people their asses. You say character is built by being someone else's fanboy and patsy and "helping" the guy on the team who needs help the least. My way is clearly better.

Fanboy and patsy? How about friend and teammate? You are so clueless, were you friends with anyone on your team? I doubt it, seems to me like you had a superiority complex and didn't want to interact with any of the "lesser thans". Your whole thought process regarding cross as a team sport backs this up even more.

Ok so now I think that we've officially entered the weird Flagpole-trolling-thing where he leverages the Brojos for the number of posts he can generate - sort of like the whole definition-of-a-real-man post a while back.So I'll give him an 8.5/10 just for the sheer magnitude of his minority status on this topic.I would like FP to comment on this post, however, and ask him whether he agrees or disagrees.

ehhhh wrote:

One of the greatest lessons I have learned, about sport and life, came from my high school coach - he told me, a 15 year old smart aleck at the time who thought the world of himself and his abilities, that in order to lead a man must first serve.

I also would like to know if FP sees no value in the 4:16 pacer running an opening 800 meter in 2:02.

I know when I paced better runners than myself I came away with the feeling that the pace was much easier than I had imagined (the best non running analogy is hitting a 5 iron layup versus a 5 iron into the green). Just a lot more relaxed and effective. It ultimately paved the way for me to achieve better results as my running progressed.

Now I know you're taking this thread and yourself too seriously. I know you were a good runner, particularly considering the dearth of training you did (like myself). You didn't need to elaborate. That's why I said kidding aside. Pacing is pacing, at any level. If it's lame in high school, then it's lame at an international track meet. Yet, it's widely accepted. I watched the tape, and I can't remember, but it didn't seem like the "pacer" ran in front the entire first 800 but part of it by his side. In tactical races, even in high school, people frequently sit on the shoulders of other runners, only to outkick them at the end. It's effectively the same thing. Can we move on?

How did this become about you and your kids? The individuals who were involved in the race obviously feel differently. If you don't want your kid to pace someone, fine, but that has nothing to do with the situation at hand. The kid in question isn't wrong simply because he made a different decision than you would want your kid to make.

It has been mentioned on this thread that the pacer finished second. How could he have possibly done any better? He obviously isn't as fast as the kid he was pacing and he beat everyone else.

This is well-stated, and an example of what sets HS track and XC apart from all the other sports. I have never seen sportsmanship rise to the level of that in track and XC in any other sport.

Thank you, this is a great post.I'm sorry a narcissist hijacked what should have been a positive thread about Marcus and Kody.

Flagpole wrote:

If, as you say, it should be the sole focus of every coach to turn out great character kids, then one of them would not be singled out to the detriment of another.

There's a difference between serving and being a patsy.

They signed up for track and field, not finishing school.

Here is where your assumptions are likely dead wrong: I doubt the pacer viewed the pacing as a detriment. Pacing someone is not being a "patsy," especially if the pacer volunteers as a favor to a friend.

Flagpole wrote:

If, as you say, it should be the sole focus of every coach to turn out great character kids, then one of them would not be singled out to the detriment of another.

FP,

Since you just blow through the entire idea about team building, friends helping friends, and everything that is good about high school athletics, lets just get to the heart of the argument.

You have taken two stances on this situation: 1) the athlete pacing is being soft for "giving up the chance at a PR to be a patsy" and 2) the coach allowing it to happen.

Since you yourself have said you have nothing against the athletes in this situation and everything is on the coach, why even continue calling the pacer a patsy? You are essentially calling a kid a patsy for helping a friend out. And who is to say he didn't have this dual meet crossed off his meet list for a workout, but decided that since he was working on going into oxygen debt in his workout, he decided to do it in a race? He wanted to go through have his race as fast as he could and see what going farther than that feels like. You know, "I run until it hurts, then I start my training". Or maybe he did decide to go for a new PR by running with somebody faster than him. He got 800m into it and it was not to be this day. He still closed to run 4:37 and hold onto second. Pretty good experiment. Learned a lot about his racing.

As for the second, isn't it completely possible the athlete that paced stepped to line without telling anybody, including his coach, his plan? He might have come up with it at the last minute, to hang with his teammate (maybe friend) as long as he could to help out a buddy. Coach knew nothing about it. And since you have said it is not on the kids, it is the coaches, without assuming (like you do with everything) the coach cannot be blamed?

All I am doing is pointing out how everything you are harping about is all based on assumptions, without knowing exactly what happened surrounding the entire event, who made the decisions, and how it all went down.

You then continued on saying that the 4:05 athlete is the one who needs help the least. This shows how little you truly understand the human psyche - level of success is certainly not indicative of level of help or assistance needed.

Back to your pacing comments and your feelings against and "inferior" athlete helping those who need help less than them, I'm pretty sure every world record ever paced has been paced by an athlete slower than the eventual race winner. Typically any race with a pacer to keep the race honest pace-wise has a pacer that is "inferior" to the competitors, otherwise they would be in the race themselves. I know this is not always the case, but generally speaking it is.

I was late to this thread, but when I saw Flag post he was done with it, I knew he'd still post multiple times ha. That was a few pages ago.

wow. Flagpole still manages to highjack another thread and make a complete a$$hole out of himself.

No one CARES about your opinion, Flagpole.

Pacing a teammate is not uncommon. When Chris Lewis was running for Mead High School(Wa.) in 1986 and he was gunning for sub 4 at his state meet (in less than ideal conditions) I'm pretty sure that it was his teammate Yukon Degenhart who rabbitted him through the 800 in 1:58-1:59. I think that he only ended up running 4:04,but regardless I'm sure that he was extremely thankful to his teammate for the effort.

I'd gladly have done the same for any of my teammates (rabbitted).

Another phenomenal performance critiqued by couch-sitters. How about this:

- he orbited the track 4 times in 4:05

- no one ran the 3rd and 4th laps with him

- it looked windy and less than favorable condition wise

If he never runs again, he is still a high school legend. From what I see, he can go @ or under 4:00 in the right race. All haters please repeat the following from your supine couch position: "I am not worthy."

Brasher - subsequent Olympic Steeplechase champion - and Chattaway - subsequently world record-holder for 5000m - didn't feel it demeaning to pace Bannister to the 4 min mile.

Bannister later attempted to return the favor leading through halfway for Chattaway in an attempt at the two mile record.

Just friends and team mates, who despite being fierce competitors on occasion, were willing to help each other achieve their goals.

Cavorty wrote:

Just friends and team mates, who despite being fierce competitors on occasion, were willing to help each other achieve their goals.

Friends and team mates, all that matters then and in this instance.

Geesh 3 more pages, and it's ALL that freaking idiot FP.

Brojos please ban this numbskull forever.

Flagpole, surely you agree that there are times when you need to run hard, and times you need to run under control, yes?

Gould paced Dickson as part of a workout. It was a dual meet with little consequence, they had both already run fast enough to qualify for all the invitationals and the league championship meets they have left on their schedule. Gould had his biggest invite of the season two days after this dual meet.

If Gould had dug down deep and tried to beat his 4:05 teammate in this rather meaningless Thursday meet, do you think he could have come back two days later and PR by 9 seconds against the strongest field he'll see all season?

Despite your experience, it's not a good idea to try and PR every race. The season is long, and if you go all out every time out, you won't have as much left in the tank when the goal meets come to actually do as well as you should. Yes, younger less talented kids should run hard in dual meets because those are the only meets they go to, but for kids that are potential champions or scorers at state, you don't dip into the well every time out. Know when to race, and know when to work out. That's a big part of coaching that you don't seem to understand.