Time for an Honest Assessment of Ritz's Performance

Also the reason ritz will continue to get large apperance fees is this thread.

treson wrote:

Honestly. He had a bad day and still ran 2:10.

I don't think he had a bad day. I think he had a good day. Still managed a PR and a sub-2:10 by his watch after going out in 14:37. I'm surprised he did't blow up, given his history with the event. I think it suggests that he is in fact in 2:07 shape with smarter pacing.

Sagarin wrote:

I don't think he had a bad day. I think he had a good day. Still managed a PR and a sub-2:10 by his watch after going out in 14:37. I'm surprised he did't blow up, given his history with the event. I think it suggests that he is in fact in 2:07 shape with smarter pacing.

Given what history? Ritz already has a great history. Meb has run more crappy races than Ritz will ever run in his life.

I can easily say Ritz is a better runner than Kara.

As one person pointed out, she's running in a general population that, on the whole, isn't as strong.

Ritz's marathon PR is 6 minutes off the WR. KG's is 10 minutes off the WR. I'm a liberal arts major, so I can't figure out percentages, but even with that, my point stands. Ritz is *much* closer to the top than Kara is, at least in the marathon.

The rest of their times, comparatively, are pretty similar, with KG having a better half, them having similar 5ks and 10ks, and Ritz having better 3ks and 2 miles.

Yeah, KG grabbed one WC bronze 2 years ago. One medal doesn't make a career.

Is Ritz definitely heads and tales above Goucher? I don't know about that, but in my opinion he's certainly the better runner. There's certainly nothing special about a 2:32, but a 2:10 at Boston is more than noteworthy.

If you watch Ritz cross the finish line, he immediately grabs his hamstring. In post race interviews, he says that he struggled with cramping late in the race.

From personal experience, I was in a position to win a small marathon and in the final mile I started to cramp. I was feeling good otherwise and was trying to pick up the pace, but the cramping made that impossible. I was barely able to make it to the line while maintaining a normal stride.

The point is that Ritz has had some problems with cramping at each of his marathon attempts. Some people never cramp, but some have this serious issue. He may have been in 2:07 shape, but will need to figure out this cramping issue to get there.

I don't think that he was exaggerating his fitness if he could run 2:10 with cramping. Let's give him some support and confidence that he is on the right track and very capable of world class times.

1983 wrote:

Given what history? Ritz already has a great history. Meb has run more crappy races than Ritz will ever run in his life.

In three of four attempts, Ritz has had a miserable finish, whether it be due to cramping, dehydration, heat, etc. In reality, with that precedent, the guy should have paced the first part of his race in London much smarter, even if it meant letting the pacemakers go. His first 5k sealed his last. I am in the camp that this guy IS every bit capable of a 2:07 RIGHT NOW with a smarter strategy.

Wilford Brimley wrote:

but a 2:10 at Boston is more than noteworthy.

Hello? Ritz ran London.

Also, people are making far too much of the fact that he went out in 14:37...that is much faster then what is required but didn't hurt him as much as Wanjiru and company going through in 14:08 (btw if you watch Wanjiru's interview he says that the early pace was fine/easy and not too fast).

I think he lost between 60-90 seconds at most, not 3 minutes. If you take into account the pacing, cramping and whatever else, I think he might be in 2:07:30 shape. But there is no way to know.

I think we need to get out of our heads that Ritz is a born marathoner. Just because someone has a lack of speed and can run a good 10000 doesn't mean they can run a better marathon then 10000 or even a comparative marathon. Ritz isn't the most durable runner, has trouble in the heat (collapsing after a hot 10k), has trouble with cramping, doesn't have the marathoners stride, is often injured and clearly still has trouble with the distance, particularly the last 2-5k.

I agree completely Tinman. These posters constantly criticizing the best American runners are just jealous.

Ritz WAS in 2.07 shape. The conditions in London were deceptive. I had several freinds running in London and despite starting cautiously, they all slowed down. So did the leaders. All this World record talk detracts from the actual performances. The reasons for the fast/slow mile splits is that the course meanders along the River Thames and for several miles you can be well up on schedule and then several miles later, somewhat down on schedule.

I agree, Ritz is doing just fine. He put himself in one the the greatest Marathon fields ever and finished 11th, WELL DONE DATHAN.

wtf are you smoking?

goucher may talk herself up a lot, but there is NO WAY that Ritz is a better runner in relative terms. Goucher has a WC medal...shes also made olympics...american women's debut marathon record...

ritz's marathons have been nothing impressive compared to goucher's, sorry to say. and he has no medals at the international level. goucher may not be as good as her an AlSal always talk her up to be, but she has more international success than Ritz (apart from the cross country scene, of course)

The other positive is that he didn't fall apart completly and dnf or run 2:14 again so he is getting stronger. Also, he rarely runs a really bad race. He just needs to stay at it, get stronger and stay healthy and he will continue to improve. I also hope he takes a break from the marathon and works on the shorter distances until next spring.

All Ritz has to do is get a part time job at Home Depot and choose another shoe sponsor and suddenly all the haters on this thread will be gushing over what a brilliant, "gutty" race he ran.

Pathetic.

Freud wrote:

wtf are you smoking?

goucher may talk herself up a lot, but there is NO WAY that Ritz is a better runner in relative terms. Goucher has a WC medal...shes also made olympics...american women's debut marathon record...

ritz's marathons have been nothing impressive compared to goucher's, sorry to say. and he has no medals at the international level. goucher may not be as good as her an AlSal always talk her up to be, but she has more international success than Ritz (apart from the cross country scene, of course)

You may be right ... depends on what criteria you use. But if you are using the criteria YOU listed you are wrong. DR has a WC medal from the WCCC for juniors when he was 18. This is arguably a more competitive event than almost all women's Championship events. DR has made two Olympic teams and has the nearly the American Best for a debut in the 10,000m (I think Kennedy has it at one second faster).

At 14:55/30:55/2:25:53 she is somewhat farther away from the WRs at 5k/10k than DR and much further at the marathon.

The only thing she has in her favor for this argument is a bronze medal in a Senior level Global championship. In terms of number of championships run and the average level competed at (i.e. place over time), in the pro ranks Dathan is far above her.

But why is this thread comparing DR to Kara Goucher? Dathan can be made out to be brilliant or a terrible disappointment without any comparison to others. It doesn't always have to made out to be a failure RELATIVE to Ryan Hall or Alan Webb or some runner from the past.

Ritz is a GREAT runner in an era of superhuman performance.

Good god, think back 7 or 8 years ago to where the US was in the heirarchy of marathoning..and distance in general, and thank your lucky stars that Ritz and Hall came along in this event to take the place of Josh Cox and Co.

2:10 with cramps, 2:12 in the horror conditions of Bejing...pretty damned good if you ask me. Guy is still 5-7 years from peaking in this event and people want to skewer him for a bit of optimism?

And MEB...the first great American distance runner of this millenium.

gonchar wrote:

Ritz is a GREAT runner in an era of superhuman performance.

Good god, think back 7 or 8 years ago to where the US was in the heirarchy of marathoning..and distance in general, and thank your lucky stars that Ritz and Hall came along in this event to take the place of Josh Cox and Co.

2:10 with cramps, 2:12 in the horror conditions of Bejing...pretty damned good if you ask me. Guy is still 5-7 years from peaking in this event and people want to skewer him for a bit of optimism?

I believe Ritz will yet deliver that elusive 2:07ish marathon if he stays with the event and runs smarter for HIS body, and I pretty much agree with much of what you said other than the peaking part. Elite marathoners don't peak in years so much as they do in sheer number of competitive efforts. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule, but Dr. Noakes was probably correct that the "body has only so many hard marathons" in it and that the road is littered with many hangers-on who peaked around marathons #4-6 as others have stated here.

Frankly, I personally think Hall will pay the price for running five hard marathons inside of two years, the last of which was on a course notorious for pounding the legs. I hope I'm wrong, but I'd be surprised (that's surprised, not shocked) if Hall ever visited the low 2:06 range again. If he steps aside and focuses on the track for awhile, then maybe he doesn't curtail his career.

Thank you, darkness, for illustrating my point much better than I did.

orbitboy wrote:

All Ritz has to do is get a part time job at Home Depot and choose another shoe sponsor and suddenly all the haters on this thread will be gushing over what a brilliant, "gutty" race he ran.

Pathetic.

Classic. Funny. And too true!

Marathoning is such an individual sport. It's about performing and reaching your desired goal on a given day with the training you put in. Ah, the beauty of marathoning.

It's more than the miles you put in.

Deep in his heart, I'm sure Ritz knows whether or not he can do what's been placed on him. I'm sure 206 ring bells in his head and he's dreamed about it..."what if..". It all boils down to what he can do on the day, like any of us.

It's not only about miles..it's about life. It's not all about where you are on the starting line, but what leads up to it. It's fragile.

I'm thrilled to bits that running is now a pro sport. What a wonderful way to live. I had people say to me, "wow, that's all you do is run, I wish I could just run all day"..."No, You don't" I'd answer back.

It's so, so involving, and going to places in your mind and heart that you never thought you'd ever want to explore. It's fragile.

Unfortunately, marathoning being a distance race, in which anything can happen (and does), it lends itself to not living up to everybody/or anybody's else's exceptations.

Perhaps Rtiz was in 206-207 shape...what does it matter? He ran what he could with what he brought to the line. Isn't that what it is about?

What you do with what you have on any given day?

Soome of us have experinced cramps, but by golly, we were ble to pull it out. Thank goodness. Then we happen to thingk that gosh, if I didn't have cramps, maybe I could have run faster. Well, yeah, maybe. BUt who cares other than you, the person that is out there dealing with not only the ups but the downs...the missed water station, the shoe maybe tied too tight, or you have to pee at 10 miles but can't afford to stop, or you're not runing your own race.

C'mon, ease up...it a race, but it's also life. I trully understand, I do.

He helped Joshua fight the battle of Jericho, he helped Daniel get out the lion's den, he helped Gilligan get off the island.