Flagpole this is ridiculous, just admit you're reading too much into this. A teammate agreed to pace a teammate to achieve a greater cause. That shows great character. This is high school, it is not always do or die, it is about teaching and growing kids into becoming better people all around.
also, I was faster than you in.high school so if you pull that card you have no legs to stand on.
I'm not sure if Kevin azn or fagpole takes the crown of biggest douchebag of lrc. At least you can understand what faggy is trying to say.
Flagpole wrote:
The MonBRO Doctrine wrote:It would have been an honor to pace a teammate to a 4:05. My coach and teammates would have felt the same way.
Well, once again, I remain shocked that so many of you would bow down to some elite kid rather than to see how close to him you could get. Maybe I have more testosterone or something.
You are coming across like a nutless douchebag is what you are doing.
You just can't admit that you are wrong and are clinging to some idiotic idea.
Flagpole, you are wrong. Just accept it and move along. Or, at least acknowledge that there are views other than yours on this topic. I can't believe you are not embarrassed by your hard-headedness. Have some self-respect. As for Gould, I completely respect his ability to be a great teammate and friend. I hope he laughs at your misguided disparagement, and realize that the sane, experienced track people here applaud his participation in such an entertaining event.No need to respond, Flagpole, you've repeated yourself too many times already.
Flagpole wrote:
That not everyone is a winner is clear as is evidenced by the comments in this thread. Winners don't pace a BETTER kid to a fast time, sacrificing their own race.
Also, you and several others have mentioned all these post-season races as if all the runners qualify to go to them. Usually on any given team, just a handful if that make it to the state meet. Just because Johnny McFast will go to the state meet and perhaps even some national meets doesn't mean that Johnny McPacer will. In fact, because of the way it all works out, it really should be Johnny McPacer who gets to go for his best time at the Dual Meet and Johnny McFast should be pacing him. That's still lame though...just not as lame as the other way around.
Impressive run by Dickson. Bravo!
We, of course, wish that he ran a Mile!
this is what i think wrote:
1) that everyone agreeing with FP is FP with an alias;
2) that at least 1/2 and maybe 3/4 of those arguing against FP are FP with an alias.
1) INCORRECT! WEJO, DO AN IP CHECK, AND IF I LIE, BAN ME FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2) INCORRECT! WEJO, DO AN IP CHECK, AND IF I LIE, BAN ME FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dean moriarty wrote:
It doesn't have anything to do with bowing to an elite kid. In fact, 99% of the time it's the elite kid pacing a slower teammate at these dual meets.
Most of us have paced teammates. I paid a full entry fee to pace my dad to his half marathon PR. I have a friend who is an excellent marathoner and she ran Boston pacing a guy with prosthetic legs. Helping out your teammates by pacing them is common practice and I think you're the only person who frowns on it.
Dean my brother, in this case, it WAS a slower kid pacing the elite kid, and that is what I have the biggest issue with. I still have a slight issue the other way around, but since I'm ok with an elite kid using a Dual Meet as a workout, if that enables him to pace a slower runner, then I'm ok with it...barely ok with it, but I can let that one go.
You pacing your dad in a half marathon and someone running in a marathon with a dude with fake legs is WAAAAAY different from two supposedly competitive runners running on the same high school team. I ran a VERY slow marathon with a friend of mine to help him finish his first one; that's just not the same at all.
Jungle Master wrote:
Flagpole this is ridiculous, just admit you're reading too much into this. A teammate agreed to pace a teammate to achieve a greater cause. That shows great character. This is high school, it is not always do or die, it is about teaching and growing kids into becoming better people all around.
also, I was faster than you in.high school so if you pull that card you have no legs to stand on.
1) It may show great character, but it isn't the sport of "great character". It's the sport of track and field. Besides, a person may have great character and still allow others to walk on him. (By the way, you can also have great character AND still actually try to beat everyone in a race, teammates included). All you cheerleaders perhaps need to work on your roundoff backhandsprings. Maybe get one of those big megaphones. "Go Johnny McFast, GO!"
2) If you were faster than me, then good show brother. One thing for sure though is that if we raced in high school and you beat me, then you would KNOW you were faster, because I for sure was trying to win that race and not saving myself for another meet or pacing someone else.
Flagpole, didn't you effectively pace Scott Fry while he sat on your shoulder for a bit before lapping you in high school? Kidding aside, you usually make valid arguments, but I think you're taking this one too seriously and making yourself look ridiculous. I used to pace teammates on the way to setting my own PRs, effectively racing myself into shape. The coach had no say in it. This kid was on his own for the last 800. It would be hard for a coach to contain anyone's enthusiasm in that environment. If this kid was paced the entire way, ala Lukas V en route to his two-mile record, I'm sure he could run a lot faster.
You really don't quite get it and it is wrong for you to make such assumptions about the integrity of Marcus and Kody. As another state level runner to come out of the same league, I can assure you that our willingness to help each other and pace each other in dual meets does not mean we are bowing down. You talk about Kody (the kid doing the pacing) as if he is some lower level varsity kid being asked to sacrifice any hope he has of doing well so that Marcus can look like a hero. Kody is a 4:16 miler! He faded back to 4:37 after the 800 and he still beat the 3rd place runner by 11 seconds! In our area, dual meets mean very little because the unspoken agreement is that we worry about league, district, and state titles. During my Junior and Senior year, I helped Kody to times he needed, Marcus helped me, and other runners in the league all helped each other. If you look at all the times that Marcus ran in the 4:25 to 4:35 range in dual meets and had multiple kids on his tail, that was not him sitting and kicking in dual meets. That is him setting an even pace and pulling other guys from other teams to PRs. You can't say that just because Kody helped Marcus achieve a special goal he has had since he was a freshman, that Kody is not a winner or a real competitor. I have seen Kody dive for the win on multiple occasions.
Everyone, Flagpole has admitted it on this board before that he was the best runner by far on his high school team while barely running sub 10 for 3200 and went to a crappy D3 school where he was the best runner by virtue of a 15 minute 5k. He has said he doesn't view cross country as a team sport and his views on this just confirm that he doesn't understand the team aspect that can exist in running.
Flagpole, kindly stop talking about things you don't know anything about.
Flagpole, sir. I would love to have the honor to pacing to a mile PR. I will fly out to where you live and pace you through, all on my expense. What do you say?
I'm sure both runners are really excited...with the pacer happy to help a teammate in an early meet.
Seriously, some of you really know how to take the excitement and fun out of 4:05 1600.
Flagpole wrote:
The MonBRO Doctrine wrote:It would have been an honor to pace a teammate to a 4:05. My coach and teammates would have felt the same way.
Well, once again, I remain shocked that so many of you would bow down to some elite kid rather than to see how close to him you could get. Maybe I have more testosterone or something.
"Bow down to some elite kid"? That is one way to characterize it. Of course, as others have pointed out, many of us would (and have) done this for runners of equal to or lesser ability than ourselves. It seems to me like "helping out a friend" would be a better way to characterize it.
And as far as helping out the team, I don't know if you noticed, but the "pacer".
The MonBRO Doctrine wrote:
Flagpole wrote:Well, once again, I remain shocked that so many of you would bow down to some elite kid rather than to see how close to him you could get. Maybe I have more testosterone or something.
"Bow down to some elite kid"? That is one way to characterize it. Of course, as others have pointed out, many of us would (and have) done this for runners of equal to or lesser ability than ourselves. It seems to me like "helping out a friend" would be a better way to characterize it.
And as far as helping out the team, I don't know if you noticed, but the "pacer".
. . . came in second place.
Flagpole, I have to jump in here. I understand what you are trying to get at here - "It's competition. It is you against me. It is ME AGAINST THE WORLD!!!!".
But you just said the one thing that is utterly wrong with high school sports in general. You just said it is the sport of track and field and not the sport of "great character". I beg to differ. These kids aren't getting paid to do what they do. In fact, you point out the opposite - they are the ones paying to participate! High school sports in general, and specifically the coaches, are in place to take in 14 year old boys (girls) and turn them into 18 year old graduating young men (women). This should be the sole focus of every high school coach in any high school sport out there. With this said, competition, doing your best (for the task at hand) every time out, teamwork, friendship, respect, commitment, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc are all lessons that can and should be learned by high school athletes.
I agree with you Flagpole, a coach should never ask an athlete to pace another athlete to a PR. But if I were a head coach with an athlete that volunteered to assist his friend/teammate I would not hold him back. One of the greatest lessons I have learned, about sport and life, came from my high school coach - he told me, a 15 year old smart aleck at the time who thought the world of himself and his abilities, that in order to lead a man must first serve. It took me awhile to finally figure out what he meant. Seems from your prideful arguing that you have still yet to understand.
Sagarin wrote:
Flagpole, didn't you effectively pace Scott Fry while he sat on your shoulder for a bit before lapping you in high school? Kidding aside, you usually make valid arguments, but I think you're taking this one too seriously and making yourself look ridiculous. I used to pace teammates on the way to setting my own PRs, effectively racing myself into shape. The coach had no say in it. This kid was on his own for the last 800. It would be hard for a coach to contain anyone's enthusiasm in that environment. If this kid was paced the entire way, ala Lukas V en route to his two-mile record, I'm sure he could run a lot faster.
1) I didn't pace Scott Fry. As juniors he didn't DQ in that Oak Harbor Race, and he beat me by a fair margin...he was well clear of me after the first lap.
2) He never lapped me in any race. I wasn't as good as him, but I was so bad as to be lapped in a 3200 by anyone.
3) I disagree about looking ridiculous. Pacing is lame at the high school level, especially when a slower kid is pacing the star runner.
4) I would have to know the circumstances behind your own pacing which led to your own PRs, but I'm betting I would be ok with that. What I'm NOT ok with is a kid sacrificing his race to pace a better kid which is what was going on in this case.
Was the kid's name really Johnny McFast?
If, as you say, it should be the sole focus of every coach to turn out great character kids, then one of them would not be singled out to the detriment of another.There's a difference between serving and being a patsy.They signed up for track and field, not finishing school.
ehhhh wrote:
Flagpole, I have to jump in here. I understand what you are trying to get at here - "It's competition. It is you against me. It is ME AGAINST THE WORLD!!!!".
But you just said the one thing that is utterly wrong with high school sports in general. You just said it is the sport of track and field and not the sport of "great character". I beg to differ. These kids aren't getting paid to do what they do. In fact, you point out the opposite - they are the ones paying to participate! High school sports in general, and specifically the coaches, are in place to take in 14 year old boys (girls) and turn them into 18 year old graduating young men (women). This should be the sole focus of every high school coach in any high school sport out there. With this said, competition, doing your best (for the task at hand) every time out, teamwork, friendship, respect, commitment, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc are all lessons that can and should be learned by high school athletes.
I agree with you Flagpole, a coach should never ask an athlete to pace another athlete to a PR. But if I were a head coach with an athlete that volunteered to assist his friend/teammate I would not hold him back. One of the greatest lessons I have learned, about sport and life, came from my high school coach - he told me, a 15 year old smart aleck at the time who thought the world of himself and his abilities, that in order to lead a man must first serve. It took me awhile to finally figure out what he meant. Seems from your prideful arguing that you have still yet to understand.
Guys of course Flagpole is right. Running has nothing to do teamwork. Track and Field is ALL about the competition. Don't get me started on how many of those people go on to be Olympians and don't have the proper competitive spirit because they were trying to do something stupid like, oh I don't know, work on LIFE skills and building character. Isn't everyone going to use running later in life? Surely no one needs to know how to be gracious later in life and help others?
This is why the world is falling apart with egotistical people who seriously believe what they say.