Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

Nope. Thier entire respective careers will suffice. It is a lot easier to challenge for titles in your first yearts when you have other future hall of famers by your side. Jordan had no noe else initially. That's why I brought game 2 of the playoffs Jordan's 2nd year multiple times. He put up 63 points on a great defensive team. he had no other options.

As for Jordan as an individual, you are inept and a poor judge of talent if you honestly believe Jordan didn't help his teammates. I already mentioned how Jordan did a lot of one-on-one work with Pippen which Pippen and the Bulls' coaching staff credit with Pippen's growth as a player. Jordan was superior on offense and defense to Larry Bird, and the numbers and accolades prove as much.

You are trying to give Bird credit for everything they did in the 80s and you are wrong to do so. McHale and Parrish didn't need Bird to be great players. He didn't make them better, they were just that good. The Celtics would have won more championships if they had Jordan instead of Bird. And Jordan didn't just score. He maintained good numbers in assists, rebounds and steals his entire career. Those numbers are higher in playoff games. A Jordan lead team with EQUAL support to a Bird lead team beats Bird EVERY time. Jordan can do more by himself than Bird and his best teammate can do collectively.

No, Larry Bird is not the greatest of all-time. Bill Walton should have made your list of great players

Consider this, nbafanatic:

Indiana State vs. Michigan State for the National Championship.

Bird + four guys off the back of a pick up truck vs. Magic and two other future NBA players.

Yes, I know it wasn't the NBA but it has some bearing on your theory about how much Bird improved his teammates.

Not to mention the turn around in the Celtics record during Bird's first year.

The world didn't begin when you turned 12. There were great athletes before Sportscenter. Some of them, you had to see to believe. You think the camera always catches the magnetism and magnitude of a great person or performance?

Even so, sometimes old footage can gives glimpses of greatness.

Check out this thread:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3544927&page=0

(What goes around, comes around, ad nauseum on this board: You can't kill old heresies. Of course Bird was one of the greatest ever.)

I believe that Malmo posted a couple of youtube links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVzLQVs0RdE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vHEWOqdyTg&feature=related

Check them out!

Walton's NBA career was too short and injury plagued. He really only had a couple of "superstar" seasons.

Picture this, Magic and Bird both have very talented lineups in the NBA. Johnson beats Bird in the Finals two out of three times. Picture this, Jordan wins three consecutive titles with Toni Kukoc as their third option. And Luc longley as a starter. And, for about the tenth time, Pippen and assisstants credit Jordan working with Pippen as a major reason for his progression. The turnaround during Bird's first year was impressive. However, he wasn't the only important player added around that time. Also, this is ultimately a debate about the BEST player in NBA history. Not the best team player. Not the best distributor. The BEST PLAYER. Jordan owns Bird in this regard. He did almost everything better than Bird and had MORE success as a result. Bird admits Jordan was the best. So does Magic. Bird was great but never reached Jordan's level. End of game, one on one, Im beating on Jordan.

W. Mitty wrote:

Consider this, nbafanatic:

Indiana State vs. Michigan State for the National Championship.

Bird + four guys off the back of a pick up truck vs. Magic and two other future NBA players.

Yes, I know it wasn't the NBA but it has some bearing on your theory about how much Bird improved his teammates.

Not to mention the turn around in the Celtics record during Bird's first year.

[quote]nbafanatic wrote:

Also, this is ultimately a debate about the BEST player in NBA history. Not the best team player. Not the best distributor. The BEST PLAYER. Jordan owns Bird in this regard. He did almost everything better than Bird and had MORE success as a result. Bird admits Jordan was the best. So does Magic. Bird was great but never reached Jordan's level. End of game, one on one, Im beating on Jordan.

[quote]

Basketball is inherently a team sport. That's why Bird was the greatest and Pete Maravich wasn't, my friend. (Both had amazing individual skills but one won and the other didn't.) BTW, that's why I would rate Russell or Bird over Chamberlain.

Obviously, unlike Maravich, MJ was both an incredible athlete and team player, so there's a debate. But to say that Bird "never reached Jordan's level" is risible. With all due respect, nbafanatic, please.

P.S. My crack about 12 year olds wasn't necessarily directed at you -- just some of other ignorant video barbarians on the boards.

nbafanatic wrote:

The turnaround during Bird's first year was impressive. However, he wasn't the only important player added around that time.

OK, then name the important players that were added when Bird turned around the Celts? Who were they? With Cornbread playing two years, he didn't have an impact. With tiny Archibald, he didn't have an impact. Who, other than Bird caused a 32 game swing in the 79/80 season.

I still like the one interview with Magic, who said that after a game on the road they were watching the Celts play on TV, then Bird suddenly pulls up and banks a left-handed jump shot off the glass. Now for most of us that shot wouldn't have registered, but for the guys who had to defend against him, and studied him, just as soon as they saw the shot they were groaning in disbelief -- becasue they all knew that he was having fun --- and he was, becasue if you look at the video of the shot, aftwards you can see him backpeddleing down the court with a shit-eating grin on his face and his tongue wagging at everyone.

The thing about Bird was that he was a lefty in his civilian life, but a righty on the basketball court. So whenever he switched to his left hand, he was very comfortable with it. In particular, the reason why he was so adept at pickpocketing balls and miraculous finger tip recoveries of loose balls probably had to do with his ambidexterity.

Got to be Jordan or Wilt. I'd put Larry Bird at #3 or 4.

nbafanatic wrote:

Yet by Jordan's 2nd season, despite missing almost the entire season with a broken foot, he reeled off 63 points in a playoff game against Bird and the Celtics in what has been heralded by some as one of the greatest playoff performances in NBA history..

The 63 points was in double overtime and the Celts swept the Bulls 3-0.

Yeah cuz Jordan never had fun or wagged his tongue.

Then there was the game against Portland where Larry decided to test himself by playing lefty.

47 points.

Conundrum wrote:

Lets do a little comparison of Jordan, Bird and Magic. Lets reduce the team factor and examine their efficiency factors.

(1)Who had the best 3point shot?

BIRD .376 (Jordan-.327, Magic-.303)

(2) Who had the highest field goal percentage?

MAGIC .520 (Jordan, Bird basically tied,.497,.496)

(3) Who had the highest free throw average?

BIRD .886 (Magic .848, Jordan .835)

(4) Who had the most assists per game?

MAGIC 11.2 (Bird 6.3 Jordan 5.3)

(5) Who had the most rebounds per game?

BIRD 10.0 (Magic 7.2 Jordan 6.2)

Give 3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd, 1 point for 3rd

Total

BIRD 12.5

MAGIC 11

JORDAN 6.5

Bird had the highest efficiency. No I didn't use total points, if you put up more shots you should score more points. I didn't use championships because that depends too much on your team and the competitor teams.

This just shows there is room for discussion.

Ummm...No. It shows that you are an idiot who has absolutely no comprehension of basketball.

malmo wrote:

OK, then name the important players that were added when Bird turned around the Celts? Who were they? With Cornbread playing two years, he didn't have an impact. With tiny Archibald, he didn't have an impact. Who, other than Bird caused a 32 game swing in the 79/80 season.

Well, Malmo, they got rid of McAdoo*, Rowe, and most importantly, John Y. Brown.

(*Although to be fair to McAdoo, he became a good role player for the Lakers.)

Conundrum wrote:

Grant Hill was an amazingly fast, aggressive dominant player in his good years that allowed Chicago to win so much. Pippen was under rated too.

Jordan had a number of the most amazing individual athletic games, this is true. But as far has his total performance over his career he was not a basketball god; He was OVER rated. He might be the best, probably but debatable, but the data shows him to be very human. At times he just was NOT efficient.

His supporting cast was severely underated and really Jordan did NOTHING to change that perception. Yes Grant Hill was amazing. His supporting cast made Jordan a basketball god.

Ummm...Grant Hill never played on any Chicago team and (thus) never played on a team with Michael Jordan.

The fact that you seem to not know this exposes you as entirely ignorant of the sport - someone who really shouldn't even be commenting.

Please, stick to running (if you know anything about that).

Conundrum wrote:

The data doesn't lie. Everything else is subjective.

You do realize that this isn't baseball don't you?

Oh, apparently not.

Conundrum wrote:

...I wish they had the ESPN stat +/-. That is an amazingly valuable stat that would settle the arguement.

In how many ways are you going to demonstrate your ignorance?

malmo wrote:

Then there was the game against Portland where Larry decided to test himself by playing lefty.

47 points.

Damn! I had forgotten about that one. Thanks.