Any other college runners feel like they race every morning????

"Here is an interested tidbit: If you want to race faster, all of your runs need to be faster. I am not saying that mandating a certain pace is the accepted or most practiced form of coaching, but as you get fitter, even your recovery runs will be easier and faster."

Girl, you run all your basic runs as fast pr faster than I do and my 5k PR is 3:15 faster than yours. You are just wrong, wrong wrong and it is a typical decent D1 girl mistake and it is probably related to the nuerotic mentality that makes you sorts so susceptible to eating disorders. If 6:45 is easy, how can barely a minute/mile faster be 5k race pace? You are making the fatal error of most 17:30 girls and why they will never be 14:30 girls (You do realize, I hope, that 17:30 is 3 minutes slower than the women's WR - the same as a guy running a pedestrian and utterly uncompetitive 15:40. Don't let the horrible depth in women's running make you think you are better than you are compared to the best. If you want to drop minutes from your time, get rid of the idea that 10 miles is a long run (this should be the longer of your daily double at least part of the year, not a long run) and slow it the hell down to get it in. Use your extra energy to run much more volume at a low-end aerobic pace - that is where the benefits lie.

In short, the only reason why your "easy" paces are so close to your 5k race pace is that you hardly run any mileage.

From Renato Canova:

and

It's called active recovery -- you're just pumping blood, clearing out crap in your legs and promoting recovery.

The whole point of a recovery day is to maximize aerobic development while minimizing fatigue - you have to find that sweet spot of largest gain at the lowest cost. One does not do this by running 1 min./mile slower than 5k race pace but then cutting the distance to keep one from being too tired. Your aerobic system can benefit by massive loads of work, but you quickly see diminishing returns on other types of training (Vo2, AT, NMF) without resting those systems in between workouts. So "recovery" days are to be run at the slowest pace possible to still encourage aerobic development while resting the other systems you are working on your workout days.

Let's take the girl above who runs 17:30 who calls 10 miles a long run. I must assume she is running a schedule similar to this:

Monday: 5-7 at 7:00 pace

Tuesday: track workout

Wednesday 5-7 at 7:00 pace

Thursday 5-7 at 7:00 pace

Friday: track workout

Saturday 5-7 at 7:00 pace

Sunday 10-12 at 5:45 pace

I would recommend a schedule more like this if she is only running once a day (at least for part of the year)

Monday: 8-10 miles (7:45+ pace)

Tuesday: 6-8 mile tempo at 6:00-6:10 pace

Wednesday: 8-10 miles (7:45+ pace)

Thursday: 8-10 miles (7:45+ pace)

Friday: Track workout with 4-5 miles of intervals under 5k race pace with relatively short recovery (maybe 60% of time it takes to runt he interval)

Saturday: Thursday: 8-10 miles (7:45+ pace)

Sunday: 15 miles easy to medium

how fast does the coach want your long run to be?

I find it hard to believe that runners on Cornell don't run fast on easy runs. I guess it would really depend on what Rojo and Wejo consider fast. I personally know a few runners on the Cornell team who run very fast on their training runs. 6:00-6:20 at the slowest. Sometimes sub six. In fact I know one runner who transfered to Cornell on the basis that his previous coach didn't believe in a training philosophy that involved running fast on easy days. He specifically believed that he needed to train at around six minute pace to be successful. If Rojo was able to break him of this habit I would be very surprised and happy becasue in the long run I think it will benefit athletes

Shorter is another great example who often ran 7 minute pace or slower even though he did alright in the Olympics and ran some pretty quick times.

This is one of the reasons why I quit my college team after one CC season.

-Our morning 5 milers always ALWAYS ended up at 5:00-5:10 pace.

-Our 8-10 mile recovery runs started out at 6:15 and ALWAYS ended up significantly sub 6. There's always one guy that's feeling good - and the whole group goes along. I was no saint - I led a few of those runs. I was completely brainwashed and knew nothing about training.

It was frustrating to me that I could do the following workouts:

8X800 @ 2:16

5X1mile @ 4:50-4:55 on a flat grass course

10 miles in 55 minutes (long tempo run)

But could never break 27 minutes on an 8K CC course!!

It's so clear to me now why I raced so poorly - man I could have used Letsrun way back then.

Hope this thread keeps growing, we are getting some very diverse thoughts and opinions...

College runner:

"and by the way i can break 27 min and i would love to be able to run at 8 to 9 min pace at my own will. I feel easy days should be easy and hard days should be hard"

I agree...just cerious as to what pace means easy to you? I usually am between 615 and 650 for easy. I realize this may be different for others, but I didnt realize it could be so drastically different for people of same ability levels.

Hog Fan:

"True easy/regeneration runs allow you to raise your body's pH (a good thing) closer to a state of equilibrium more than just sitting on your butt does"

Just wondering if there is research to back this up, and if there is, I didnt realize this was such an important aspect of a recovery day. I'm not trying to be a cock, I am just cerious for more scientific, physiological answers as to why recovery runs are important and for what reasons. And I do run on feel for recovery days, but I do check my watch sometimes just to get an idea of what Im doing. As long as a runner isnt anal about picking up the pace of a recovery run because the last mile was too slow, there is nothing wrong with checking your watch to see how fast you are going. If the person does freak out about pace, then I agree with you. They sould probably only check their watch to make sure they get in their prescribed volume for the day.

NC: "The whole point of a recovery day is to maximize aerobic development while minimizing fatigue"

Many people are emphasizing this in their posts. So here is another question, should there be seperate days for recovery runs and aerobic development runs, or are these one in the same? From the sources I have found (to lazy to site), one must run at a minimum of 65% MHR and maximum of 85% MHR to elicit a significant aerobic response. So if your recovery runs are being done to develop your aerobic system, check your HR on a run and see if your easy pace is eliciting this response. If its not you are running too slow. If your recovery runs are simply for recovery (pH, crap out of legs, soreness...), then your pace is irrelavent.

Trackhead:

"It's called active recovery -- you're just pumping blood, clearing out crap in your legs and promoting recovery."

notwithstanding wrote:

It was frustrating to me that I could do the following workouts:

8X800 @ 2:16

5X1mile @ 4:50-4:55 on a flat grass course

10 miles in 55 minutes (long tempo run)

But could never break 27 minutes on an 8K CC course!!

Wait, you could run 10 miles at 5:30 pace, but not run an 8K at 5:26 pace? I think you're mistaken about something there.

Guys - what about 'conversational pace?' i am surprised this term has not been used yet - i have used it throughout my running life - in high school, college and afterwards....

to me, regardless of distance, time, scientific proof, heart rate, etc., i have always run my 'easy days' (loosely defined) at a pace I could talk -excessively and at will, it's a great time to be caddy- there were times when this could have been sub six pace, others when it may have been 7:30s; it really depended who you are running with, fitness level, etc....

Hog Fan wrote:

Not true. True easy/regeneration runs allow you to raise your body's pH (a good thing) closer to a state of equilibrium more than just sitting on your butt does. Plus, it provides an aerobic stimulus. That is why you don't just do hard workouts and then take 1-2 days off before repeating.

You are completely wrong on several counts.

#1 - Lactic acid will DECREASE your body's pH, not increase it. Acids are low pH, bases are high.

#2 - Exercising does not bring your body closer to a state of equilibrium. You are already in a state of equilibrium. Your body tries very hard to keep things in their ideal state. When you exercise, you actually throw that off.

I think you were trying to say that by exercising and producing lactic acid, your body will respond by creating more buffers (in an attempt to maintain equilibrium). The more often you do this, the more efficient the body becomes at releasing and utilizing these buffers.

I think that's what you meant...but you said it completely wrong.

Oh wait. You might have meant that the previous day's workout throws off your equilibrium, and that light exercise helps to correct that.

If you meant that, you are, again, very wrong.

You cannot survive for very long if your body is out of whack. And certainly within a few hours of a difficult workout your body's pH is back to normal.

Good Stuff. I agree if you are putting in the miles, it is ridiculous to run so close to 5k or 8k pace on a general aerobic or recovery run. Hell, it takes me 30 minutes to really get into a groove when I'm on tired legs.

One other factor is the terrain and/or altitude. For national and world class runners, is it not common that they might be running 8-9 min pace over very challenging terrain? This might still equate to 6:30-7 min pace, on flatter ground or at sea level. So if this is a good easy pace for a 27 min 10k runner, it may be a little fast for a 30-32 min 10k runner.

Why do yall think that you have to go Easy-hard-easy-hard-easy- hard. Why not run moderately hard every day so you almost never have to run ridiculously slow 7:30+. You need to keep your training consistent without HUGE fluctuations. Granted, some days are harder than others, but you should rarely have to go 100% on workout days and 25% on easy days. Why not go 60-70% almost everyuday, except for those days when your body just aint working and you gotta turn the watch off. I think you guys have a one-sided view to training...

--john mcdee

Okay, it's a 9.5 mile loop but I always called it 10. Still even at that pace, it's an indication that I should have been able to run closer to 26 if not under. The fact that I was so far away from it tells me a lot (now) about how tired I was everytime I raced. Every race was the same. Go out mid-pack at about 5:00 pace and then completely fall apart the last couple of miles.

I would add that I ran 40-45 mpw in HS and immediately ramped up to 80 mpw in college. I was already running 27 flat for 5 miles as a Jr. in HS, so I was completely distraught to race so poorly.

I was tired almost 100% of the time while on the team. My grades suffered. Quitting the team was a big relief, and I have no regrets.

"Why not run moderately hard every day so you almost never have to run ridiculously slow 7:30+. You need to keep your training consistent without HUGE fluctuations."

Wrong, wrong, wrong for most people. It is all about training various systems that all play a role in racing. For me, anything between about 6:00 pace and 7:30 pace is an aerobic run, plain and simple. The adaptations at both paces are about the same - simole aerobic fitness. But you can INCREASE those adaptations by more volume - 6:00 pace just gives more fatigue and forces me to sacrifice what really carries aerobic benefit - more volume, and to sacrifice the quality of workouts that help with other aspects of conditioning.

Now I don't deny that there are folks out there who really don't feel any worse after several days at 6:00 than 7:00 pace and can run the same mileage and the same quality workouts on either easy day pace. But the idea that your average daily pace is the key is silly. It is better to run truly AT pace twice a week and low-end aerobic the rest of the days at higher mileage than medium high end aerobic every day at higher mileage.

Digger P:

The pace all depends on how tired i am and how i feel once i get started on the run. If it is an easy day but for some reason i feel great i would still try and not run all that fast, maybe 6:45. Almost forcing myself to just relax and enjoy an easy run. Its funny how much harder 6:45 pace gets when you try and run at least that fast everyday with workouts, races, and a milage bump up mixed in. I have no doubt coming into the season i could have run faster in the 8k than i could now. Anyway, on the other end of the scale sometimes an easy run wil be over 8 min. I always start my watch, just a habit, but i wont look at it once on easy days, just run on feel.

ho hum guy wrote:

http://www.coacheseducation.com/xc/jack_farrell_july_00.htm

The above article is pretty convincing that hard/easy isn't the only way to go. I have to say, though, that I believe this approach may lead to unbelievable short-term gains if applied very carefully, and exactly as prescribed. I believe it is risky, however, and if the paces are too fast some days, the chance for breakdown looms ever closer. You don't recover enough for the next day. Then the next day comes and you try to run too fast again, and a season-long downslide begins.

My own bias is to mix speeds up, never killing yourself, but always feeling comfortably tired.

farrell always fails to mention that this sort of training creates NO long-term results-- the fact is NONE of his "great" high school runners ran well after they graduated (injuries/burnout)... down the road from thousand oaks was another high school, agoura, that produced ryan wilson (sub-13:20), amy skeirecz (sp?) (numerous NCAA titles) and deena drossin without hammering them everyday...

this kid justin on my team races all of our morning runs so yes I can feel for you..