Sub 1:50 800m Training

why would he run the 800 then?? his other times seem much faster, especially the 5k

why wrote:

why would he run the 800 then?? his other times seem much faster, especially the 5k

This may not make any sense, but I am trying to think of his future - after high school.

HSC wrote:

This may not make any sense, but I am trying to think of his future - after high school.

Makes perfect sense to me. It's gonna be tough to be quick over 5km if you can't break two minutes for 800m.

OS4 Your suggestions look very sound. Also close to

what I had planned.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

Sounds similar to what Jim Spivey did in high school-maximizing 800/mile speed in high school.

http://www.tnrunning.com/articles/milner/catching_up_with_spivey.html

So does that mean only 0.1% of the people actually understand you?The question to which you responded was asking if finishing off 200m repeats with one or two 22 second runs, is appropriate for this time of year, because it might place to much demand on the anaerobic system.Do you claim that it is never possible to over-stimulate the anaerobic system at any time of the year, no matter the runner, his event, and the training phase?Completely and mutually exclusively contrary to the impossibility of anyone ever being "too anaerobic", it would seem to me that the possibility of over-stimulating the "anaerobic system", leading to over-training, always exists every week of the year.Can you help me see what's wrong with my thinking? Or is my statement correct, and maybe I'm just using the wrong words?

wellnow wrote:

You can never be "too anaerobic" at any time of year. The anaerobic systems are used first in training and in racing. So when people talk about alactic sprints for example, that is actually very high intensity anearobic work.

Of course this is very different to 99.9% of people's understanding of the terminology. That's because the terminology is generally abused and misunderstood.

There would certainly be problems arising if a runner did too many speed sessions at the expense of endurance, but why would 22 seconds for 200m be too fast for Seb Coe?

If there was sufficient time for him to convert that kind of speed endurance into 45-46 second pace for 400 then he migh get himself into 1.41 shape for the summer.

pewterschmidt wrote:

I am sure that mitochondria are destroyed when pH gets low enough but I would like evidence that your pH drops that low during an anaerobic session. After all normal pH is 7.4 and death occurs around 6.8 so I am assuming that during an anaerobic session your pH MAY drop to 7.2.

Again Id like to see evidence.

Blood ph and muscle ph are very different. The blood must remain slightly alkaline at all times, but muscle ph can fall to 6.2-6.4

Some Canadian wrote:

wellnow wrote:

Low ph doesn't destroy mitochondria, that is just another silly myth.

Well, there's only one thing to do to find out for sure: get some mitochondria in a controlled environment and then introduce them to low-pH conditions and see what happens.

Oh... wait... someone already did that.

Nevermind!

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I do it regularly, I run hard up hills.

wellnow wrote:

Some Canadian wrote:

Well, there's only one thing to do to find out for sure: get some mitochondria in a controlled environment and then introduce them to low-pH conditions and see what happens.

Oh... wait... someone already did that.

Nevermind!

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I do it regularly, I run hard up hills.

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...

(slaps forehead in exasperation)

wellnow wrote:

but why would 22 seconds for 200m be too fast for Seb Coe?

Because his target was 27 seconds?

I think you are missing the point, 200's is not too fast for a runner like Coe the first 200m of a 1.41 800 are very fast, in Kipketer's 1.41.1 he went through in about 23.5

Maybe you are too hung up on Lydiard dogma.

Why are you slapping your head in exasperation? Running fast causes muscle cell damage, that does not mean that low ph is the major cause, that is not a proven hypothesis.

Explain why running downhill without low ph causes more damage than running uphill with low ph?

Also, why is heat production hardly ever mentioned in the literature concerning muscle fatigue?

Think logically, there are many silly fizzyology myths out there.

Ask Will Jurkowski....he knows a lot about talking the talk of going sub 1:50 but never actually doing it. In his mind he has already run 1:46 and made the olympic team.

Anthony Colotti wrote:

Explain how because you are absolutely wrong. The destruction of mitochondria is also not a myth.

I have no idea where you come up with this shit but if you read one page of any Soviet training manual or an exercise physiology book you would realize this.

An example maybe? Glycogenolytic is just the breakdown of glycogen to glucose during Glycolysis, not some separate energy system. Pretty basic.

Steve Scott did 1k's at 2:49 pace with 300m jog. A 3:47 mile guy. The hills were a high volume and not all out with a long recovery.

Anthony, it's very simple. The specificity of training has much more to do with neuro-muscular co-ordination than with aerobic/anaerobic capacities. These capacities don't change substantially during much of the athletes training once they have a decent level of basic fitness. What changes is the neural adaption, so you may be able to run 200's much faster after a few weeks of speed work, but thea adaption is mostly neural. If you have been doing hill work then you already have the enzymes to cope with higher H+ concentrations etc.

Glycolysis from blood glucose and glycogenolysis are NOT the same pathway. There are different H+ and ATP yields.

With glycogenolysis there is a yield of one extra ATP and one less H+

So that mean there is six times as much anaerobic ATP derived from glycogen v glucose and a much lower acidity.

Consider this in relation to how long we should wait after our last meal before we train hard or race, it is very significant.

OS4, I saw in Nick Symmonds' blog that he opens the outdoor season with a 1500m phase before going on to 800s. Looks like it was april/may. Did you do this under Gagliano too? I was wondering if he's just running off the strength phase or if there is actual specific sharpening to prepare for these 1500s.

OS4 or anyone...

All of my middle distance and distance runners will be coming straight from basketball and will have just a 12 week season.

In the past, I have approached training in a couple of ways after their season is over-

one being working solely on endurance (long runs, easy runs, some mild LT work) and speed work of the 30-60m variety (3-6x 30-60m) for the first 4 weeks. The first few meets, they would run a variety of races from the 200-3200m, depending on the kid. A lot of success by the end of the year from this.

Last season, we started training all "systems" simutaneously and gradually progressed. It was hit or miss last season and we never ran as well as I thought we would have. Not nearly as well as the year before. Some kids didn't even PR. The weather was awful, however. We never had a "nice" meet and were only able to get on our gravel track for 2 workouts all year. So maybe our race results were skewed a little.

My question, though- what are some ideas on how to approach training with a group like this; coming straight from basketball?

mistake lake wrote:

Last season, we started training all "systems" simutaneously and gradually progressed. It was hit or miss last season and we never ran as well as I thought we would have. Not nearly as well as the year before. Some kids didn't even PR. The weather was awful, however. We never had a "nice" meet and were only able to get on our gravel track for 2 workouts all year. So maybe our race results were skewed a little.

If you mean by all systems that you included "anaerobic training" from the start, that was a mistake. First approach was better because you had more pure endurance work without inerrupting that with "anaerobic training".

If they have such a short season then they should continue this base regime (endurance and alactic top speed) through competitions, just include more rhythm (race pace) strides in. They do not need really hard sessions with races because of not so good base background. Only some progressive VO2max intervals before and in racing season depending of the race schedule.

atletabanana wrote:

OS4, I saw in Nick Symmonds' blog that he opens the outdoor season with a 1500m phase before going on to 800s. Looks like it was april/may. Did you do this under Gagliano too? I was wondering if he's just running off the strength phase or if there is actual specific sharpening to prepare for these 1500s.

This is a good opportunity to give 99% of the credit for anything I may know about 800m training to Coach Gagliano. No other coach in the US has developed elite runners so consistantly over a longer period of time. With all respect to Coach Canova and others, if you gave Coach Gags 3-4 high school Kenyans who ran 1:48 at 8000 ft every year you would end up with a bunch of 1:41-1:42 Kenyans year in year out if he were coaching them. What he has done with the talent pool who has sought him out is astounding. At a very basic level, he blended the concept of speed endurance with the Oregon system that was being applied to pure 5k,10k, and marathon. Additionally he had the eye for talent that others did not. He recruited Kenah as a 1:56 high school junior. Holman was "only" a 4:10 HS miler. Teter and Symmonds had done more but he got them both to the next level. This doesnt count to droves of men that either went to G.U. or participated in his training camps who came in as 1:48-1:50 guys and finished at 1:44-1:47. Coached the DMR World Record at one point. 4*1500m World Record as well I think. I know everyone else has their favorite coach (Sam Bell was particularly productive also) but in the 800m and 1500m there is no comparison in this Country, and perhaps the world in terms of an innovator and true coach. His 1500m resume is equally impressive.

There was not a great deal of difference in the 800m and 1500m training until the final 6 weeks or so when you were sharpening and doing more race pace work. I would say yes, you start off a longer season with more mile racing -- notice Symmonds big breakthrough was the 3:56 he ran at the beginning of 2007 indoors. I spoke with Gags after and he already knew Nick was the real deal. Through Gags' system you build a base of both strength and speed -- you havent sharpened yet, but you can produce a fairly competitive race (particularly if you are racing up a distance) so to make a short story long, no sharpening work at the 1500m...