Sub 1:50 800m Training

It is not what? Beneficial in base or highly anaerobic?

he means it is not beneficial because it is too anaerobic.

As a non scientific coach, my instinct is also that it is too anaerobic for early season. You could run up to the anaerobic point, and then stop or slow down. Later in the year when you are trying to increase your tolerance, you might run through the pain, but early season it doesn't make sense.

The fact that Coe was doing it as 20 or 30 reps says to me that he was using it as aerobic work/tempo work/rhythm work.

The anaerobic version would be 8x200 in 25 with 45-60 sec rest.

another canuck wrote:

You could run up to the anaerobic point, and then stop or slow down.

What is the anaerobic point?

The point where the guys delivering the refrigerators give you one to carry.

gotcha

are the guys delivering the refrigerators really bears?

hill city wrote:

wellnow:

Would you post an easy to understand glossary of training intensities.

Sorry I don't really understand what you mean, can you be more specific?

pewterschmidt wrote:

Wellnow, OldSub4 or anyone else

This kind of relates to what is being discussed above:

Supposedly El G did 10x300 meter uphill in base phase. This seems like it would be highly aerobic and not whatsoever alactic. I figure it would take him 45-50 sec of hard running.

What am I missing here? Why would this be beneficial in base?

Hill reps are beneficial all year round. Why wouldn't they be? There is nothing special about so called base phase that determines you shouldn't do high intensity workouts.

Anthony Colotti wrote:

pewterschmidt wrote:

Wellnow, OldSub4 or anyone else

This kind of relates to what is being discussed above:

Supposedly El G did 10x300 meter uphill in base phase. This seems like it would be highly aerobic and not whatsoever alactic. I figure it would take him 45-50 sec of hard running.

What am I missing here? Why would this be beneficial in base?

It is not.

Glycolitic training means conflict with aerobic means for energy. The adaptive mechanisms conflict with each other. You can look this up if you want, the best source would be Vladamir Issurin's work.

You most certainly can be "too anaerobic." This has been validated since the work of Costill back in the 60's. The lowering of ph releases to many hydrogen ions, destroys mitochondria, and will diminish aerobic endurance.

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Glycolytic (actually by far the greater energy contrbibution is Glycogenolytic) training doesn't conflict with aerobic training, the two complement each other. Low ph doesn't destroy mitochondria, that is just another silly myth. Think of it this way, what will do more damage, running hard up a steep hill thus lowering cell ph or running hard on a steep downhill with a normal ph?

The downhill will do far more damage.

Agreed. If you look at many elite athletes training quality workouts are done nearly year round. The key is when you hit your competitive stage you need to back off you hard workouts and just focus on racing.

If you look at Steve Scott's trianing log from the 80's he would run maybe one hard workout a week. And some weeks with 2-3 races he would do more than strides, the racing was enough.

You need to find what works for you...

Explain how because you are absolutely wrong. The destruction of mitochondria is also not a myth.

I have no idea where you come up with this shit but if you read one page of any Soviet training manual or an exercise physiology book you would realize this.

An example maybe? Glycogenolytic is just the breakdown of glycogen to glucose during Glycolysis, not some separate energy system. Pretty basic.

Steve Scott did 1k's at 2:49 pace with 300m jog. A 3:47 mile guy. The hills were a high volume and not all out with a long recovery.

wellnow wrote:

Low ph doesn't destroy mitochondria, that is just another silly myth.

Wellnow is here again clearing our heads from these "silly myths" taking myth after myth down. What I know from experience, you really can bee too anaerobic like Anthony Colotti wrote. If you train too anaerobically it´s taken away from the aerobic side, your body goes more to anaerobic mode. And this happens until runners like wellnow learns this in the hard way.

Care to post some specific articles from reputable (i.e. non coaching articles) sources? I believe that too much anaerobic work causes bad stuff to happen but all the evidence I have seen suggests that isn't because of mitrochondria destruction (or blood ph). The old coaches had the right idea but I think there explaination may not have been scientifically sound.

Anthony Colotti wrote:

Explain how because you are absolutely wrong. The destruction of mitochondria is also not a myth.

I have no idea where you come up with this shit but if you read one page of any Soviet training manual or an exercise physiology book you would realize this.

An example maybe? Glycogenolytic is just the breakdown of glycogen to glucose during Glycolysis, not some separate energy system. Pretty basic.

Steve Scott did 1k's at 2:49 pace with 300m jog. A 3:47 mile guy. The hills were a high volume and not all out with a long recovery.

wellnow wrote:

Low ph doesn't destroy mitochondria, that is just another silly myth.

Well, there's only one thing to do to find out for sure: get some mitochondria in a controlled environment and then introduce them to low-pH conditions and see what happens.

Oh... wait... someone already did that.

Nevermind!

I wanted too look at Wilson Kipketer's :

Strength training, hills ar some anaerobic stuff that he was doing , because he was so tiny and had such non muscular legs that i think I have more than him.

From 77 kg of body weight by muscle mass is 60 kg :) I'm a 16 year old. Maybe it's to much , because my sports nutritionist said that's too high :)

Need some training notes of Wilson Kipketer. Maybe Oldsub4 or someone profesional in running can help me out ;)

I am sure that mitochondria are destroyed when pH gets low enough but I would like evidence that your pH drops that low during an anaerobic session. After all normal pH is 7.4 and death occurs around 6.8 so I am assuming that during an anaerobic session your pH MAY drop to 7.2.

Again Id like to see evidence.

I am sure most would agree that for a :24/:25 200 runner, the best way for him to run sub 2:00 would be close to even splits. For this to happen wouldn't he need to work a lot on strength to be able to hold a :28 + or - first 200 so that he could finish with a :30/:31? If that is true, what would be the best workouts this time of the year to develop that strength?

Thanks.

[quote]OR wrote:

Care to post some specific articles from reputable (i.e. non coaching articles) sources? I believe that too much anaerobic work causes bad stuff to happen but all the evidence I have seen suggests that isn't because of mitrochondria destruction (or blood ph). The old coaches had the right idea but I think there explaination may not have been scientifically sound.

This weekend I will. Hopefully I won't have to Inter library loan them.

HSC wrote:

I am sure most would agree that for a :24/:25 200 runner, the best way for him to run sub 2:00 would be close to even splits. For this to happen wouldn't he need to work a lot on strength to be able to hold a :28 + or - first 200 so that he could finish with a :30/:31? If that is true, what would be the best workouts this time of the year to develop that strength?

Thanks.

bump

HSC wrote:

HSC wrote:

I am sure most would agree that for a :24/:25 200 runner, the best way for him to run sub 2:00 would be close to even splits. For this to happen wouldn't he need to work a lot on strength to be able to hold a :28 + or - first 200 so that he could finish with a :30/:31? If that is true, what would be the best workouts this time of the year to develop that strength?

Thanks.

bump

This thread has definately become quite long, but the answers to your question are all in this. My personal philosophy and experience is that the runner should be working 85% of the time on strength, but not let his CP systems and anaerobic systems atrophy, so while not too much speed work, at least some once per week (more of a half session on an off day of 3-4 200s). The general schedule of a tuesday interval 3-5k type workout (5*800) cutting down times, thursday tempo LT threshold work with a few quick short intervals at the end, and Saturday for some slightly more specific work at closer to mile pacing (something like an 8-6-5-4-3-2-1) progression. Sunday run of 50-60 minutes.

The times you would need to guage but if the goal is sub 2, then mile would be around 4:24-4:28 and 5k around 16minutes I am guessing for a typical HS runner (I am proably off). You could have the 5*800 be 245 cutting down to 225. Tempos at 545 pace. 2*3*200 in 32-30-28. 8-6-5 starting around 70 pace and working down faster than 800m pace by the 300m...

Check out the thread for more varied workouts at the various levels....