Sub 1:50 800m Training

British 1500/5000 runner John Mayock trained with El Gerrouj during his peak years and said that he had slowed his steady pace slightly to around 5.20 pace.

I suspect that El Gerrouj came to the conclusion that he maybe trained too hard in 1997 and this prevented him from running as well in the Grand Prix races as he hoped.

He also recognized that he trained too hard in the run up to the Sydney Olympics in 2000, which is a widely known fact, but I feel that the oft quoted training from 1996-7 was modified slightly in the realization that the quality of the track sessions was more important than the quality and quantity of the steady paced runs.

Not completely relevant but thought it would be the best place to post.

I recently ran the session below.

10 x 200m with 2-2:15 Minutes recovery - 8 in 28, 2 - 27

Im looking to get down to around 1:53 in the spring, what sort of times do you think I would hit at present indoors off this session?

I want to know, how far I am off this at present.

Thanks

shorten the recovery...that is the best predictor. with that much recovery, a sprinter type could (maybe) manage that workout, but so could a distance type, but they each would perform very differently over 800m. Either lengthen the reps or shorten the recovery, short reps with long recoveries are not good predictors for long events.

wellnow wrote:

British 1500/5000 runner John Mayock trained with El Gerrouj during his peak years and said that he had slowed his steady pace slightly to around 5.20 pace.

I suspect that El Gerrouj came to the conclusion that he maybe trained too hard in 1997 and this prevented him from running as well in the Grand Prix races as he hoped.

He also recognized that he trained too hard in the run up to the Sydney Olympics in 2000, which is a widely known fact, but I feel that the oft quoted training from 1996-7 was modified slightly in the realization that the quality of the track sessions was more important than the quality and quantity of the steady paced runs.

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Thanks, Wellnow, for the information. It makes sense that El.G. would slow to about 5:20 pace, which would make his quality sessions go more smoothly.

Low 1:50s Runner wrote:

Not completely relevant but thought it would be the best place to post.

I recently ran the session below.

10 x 200m with 2-2:15 Minutes recovery - 8 in 28, 2 - 27

Im looking to get down to around 1:53 in the spring, what sort of times do you think I would hit at present indoors off this session?

I want to know, how far I am off this at present.

Thanks

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The workout you described has short reps and long recoveries, so there is no way to predict your 800m time accurately.

Suggestion: Run a 600m time trial (by yourself) and estimate your 800m race time by multiplying by 1.40. Example: 600m time trial in 1:24.0 = 84 seconds x 1.4 = 117.6 seconds, which is 1:57.6 for 800m (predicted race time). It's close enough to give you a good idea about where you stand relative to your goal.

Regards,

Tinman

X1.4 eh? That is a good, simple formula

1:41=1:12, both world records.

works pretty well.

For a well aerobically trained runner running under 2:00 adding 30-33 seconds on to a 600m TT works pretty well too.

I'm noticing some odd patterns on this thread.

I was out in Ifrane last year and regularly saw Kada and his group training, and apart from when they were down at the plateau or track doing sessions they ran very slowly. I'm talking 7-8 minute miling with the men and women running together.

I can't imagine the training has changed very much since El gueroujj was running but they seemed to do a lot of recovery runs.

What does everyone think about Webb and the 800m race? I think he has a greater upside then any other us 800m runner right now, even Symmonds. With his 47.4 hs relay speed (like Ovett) and his new 1:43 pr (beating Reed and Symmonds, although Webb split ~50.0 and Symmonds split ~52.5/53 and was never in the race, running 1:46+)

Honestly, I think he could be the best 800m runner in the U.S. right now.

Tinman or any others ---

Have heard of a 1200-800-600-400-300-200 workout for middle disance runners.

What would be the main purpose of such a workout be and how much recovery?

Thank you -

Wow, lots of good post to respond to. Everyone must be having a quiet day at work!

1. El G; as always, we are forced to speculate. I assume that his comment about overtraining for 2000 didn't refer to the base period, but his specific preparation. Tinman, wellnow, what do you think of the possibility that he raised his level to world class with the daily tempo running at an earlier age, but as he got older he didn't need it quite as much and spent more time on specific training?

2. HSC; that workout or a variation is used by many and has different applications. It can be run with short rest at 5k-3k pace and used as strong base work. However, I think its best use and the way I have seen it laid out for Kenyans is pretty high powered for specific endurance. So for a 4:00 miler it might be; 4:10, 3:05; 2:02; 1:28; 55, with 3-4 min rest.

I have used a version of this with reasonable success.

HSC wrote:

Tinman or any others ---

Have heard of a 1200-800-600-400-300-200 workout for middle disance runners.

What would be the main purpose of such a workout be and how much recovery?

Thank you -

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I think the workout you list is not just for middle distance runners. Of course, the speicific intensity of each rep must be addressed to identify the expected training effect(s). Overall, it's a typically a race simulation workout (Long reps at a slower pace followed by progessively faster reps, which become shorter and shorter). The physiologic effect ranges from VO2 max to speed-endurance (lactic buffering and force production while under acidosis).

I've prescribed workouts for runners with a very basic format: the pace equals how fast one can travel over three times as far as the rep. So, if I give a 1,000m rep for that workout, I'd expect the runner could run 3,000m at that pace in a race or time trial. A runner who can cover 3,000m in 9:00 would be given a 1,000m rep at 3:00.

Other times, I have prescribed a workout such as 1600, 1200, 800, 400 with the first rep starting at 5k race-pace, and then dropping the pace as the repetition lengths decrease.

Here is a typicaly progression I have used since 1989 for "fit" runners, not beginners. I found that giving this workout to runners who were unfit was a mistake because it destroyed them.

1600m at 5k race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),

1200 at 3k race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),

800 at 1500m race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),

400 at 800m race effort.

You will quickly recognize weaknesses and strengths from the workout. Runners who lack aerobic efficiency will slow dramatically in this workout. People who lack anaerobic capacity will not be able to improve the speed at the end of the workout much, compared to earlier reps.

Note; this workout is for runners who have been training seriously for several week, even months. It's not for beginners!

1600m at 5k race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),

1200 at 3k race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),

800 at 1500m race effort (jog 3-4 minutes recovery),

400 at 800m race effort.

Fit runners can handle this workout well, feel tired but not totally spent. Unfit runners will slow be unable to increase the pace for the 800m and 400m reps. The workout also tells you a lot about where you stand aerobically. If you recover between reps well, then you know that your preparations have been beneficial. If you struggle to recover, it's a sure sign you better do some solid endurance work and forego the hard reps for awhile.

Regards,

Tinman

Tinman --

Thank you for your response. So - would this be a good workout (1200-800-600-400-300-200) from mid to late preseason for a 4/8 and 8/16 runner? Starting with the 1200 rather than 1600? And using the same pace and recovery as you suggested?

The above has 500m more volumn (compared to the 1600-1200-800-400) and maybe a little more intense. If the purpose is a race simulated workout and the 800 is the race of focus, and the 800 pace we are shooting for is around 28-29/200, would the 12-8-6---- be OK?

i know the creator of this thread, i feel special.

This is a tentative plan for a senior high school 800 meter runner in a 13 week season. I'll take any critique, positive or negative.

There are two workouts a week: a shorter "specific speed" workout and a longer "specific endurance" workout. Also included is a weekly "speed maintenance" workout and weekly mileage goals. I didn't include any ancillary trianing, since I'm not sure what the kids will be able to handle yet.

“Specific Speed Workouts”

Week 1: 3x4x200 (cut-down sets starting at current mile pace)

Week 2: 4x4x200 Mile Pace (cut-down sets starting at current mile pace- 200m jog R/ 3min sets)

Week 3: 3x3x300 Mile Pace (cut-down sets starting at current mile pace- 200m jog R/ 3min sets)

Week 4: 3x3x400 Mile Pace (cut-down sets starting at current mile pace- 200m jog R/ 3 min sets)

Week 5: 4x(400-300-200) Mile-800 pace

Week 6: 8x200 (800/1600m- 800/400 pace-200 m slow jog R)

Week 7: 5x300 (800/1600m-800/400 pace- 300m slow jog R)

Week 8: 4x400 (800/1600m- 800/400 pace- 400m slow jog R)

Week 9: 6x150 cut-downs (800m -400 pace- 250 meter R) (big meet this week)

Week 10: 600-2x300-4x150 (mile goal pace, 800 goal pace, 400 goal pace)

Week 11: 350-300-250-200 (Fast= slow jog R)

Week 12: 6x80-150-300-150-4x80 (Fast-800 goal pace-Fast)

Week 13: 4x200 cut-down (four days out from state meet)

“Specific Endurance Workouts”

Week 1: 4x1 mile LT

Week 2: 4 mile LT pace

Week 3: 4 x 1mile Cut-downs

Week 4: 4 mile Progression Run

Week 5: 2x2 miles @ Lt/10k pace

Week 6: 1600-1200-1000-800-400-200 (10k-1600 pace)

Week 7: 6x1000 (10k-3k/mile pace; 3 min R)

Week 8: 5x1000 (5k-3k/milw pace; 2:30 min R)

Week 9: 3 mile Progression Run (big meet this week)

Week 10: 4x800 (5k-mile pace- 400 jog R)

Week 11: 3x800 (3k-mile/800 pace- 400 jog R)

Week 12: Add min 5min LT at the end of an easy run

Week 13: NA (week of state)

“Speed Maintenance”

Wk 1: 5x50mHills

Wk 2: 6x50mHills

Wk 3: 7x50mHills

Wk 4: 8x50mHills

Wk 5: 9x50mHills

Wk 6: 8x60m (1/2 hills, ½ flat)

Wk 7: 7x60m (1/2 hills, ½ flat)

Wk 8: 6x60m (1/2 hills, ½ flat)

Wk 9: 5x60m (1/2 hills, ½ flat)

Wk 10: 4x60m (1/2 hills, ½ flat)

Wk 11: 3x60m Hills

Wk 12: 2x60m Hills

Wk 13: NA

Weekly Mileage (soft, dirt trails; often rolling hills; all easy running by feel):

Wk 1: 40

Wk 2: 42

Wk 3: 45

Wk 4: 47

Wk 5: 49

Wk 6: 50

Wk 7: 52

Wk 8: 47

Wk 9: 40

Wk 10: 45

Wk 11: 42

Wk 12: 40

Wk 13: 30

higher mileage earlier in the season...40s aint gonna cut it.

[quote]HSC wrote:

Tinman --

Thank you for your response. So - would this be a good workout (1200-800-600-400-300-200) from mid to late preseason for a 4/8 and 8/16 runner? Starting with the 1200 rather than 1600? And using the same pace and recovery as you suggested?

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Overall, you have the right idea. Start with 3k pace and gradually increase the speed as you drop the rep distances. Jog 3-4 minutes between reps and you'll be fine. You could use less recovery time, but why make a workout harder than necessary? In the words of Arthur Lydiard, "Tain, Don't Strain!"

I agree with you, however, I should add that all of my distance runners play basketball (so more 400/800 types); really small school. So week #1 is technically their first week of "track" training.

Your 1.40 factorial may apply to speed-based 800 runners, but in my experience, it is more like 1.33 (i.e =race pace) for endurance-based runners. Proper sharpening and the adrenaline of competition should take care of the last 200, in most cases. The same "predictor" of a 1200 solo TT at goal pace towards a 1500 applies.

Tinman wrote:

Suggestion: Run a 600m time trial (by yourself) and estimate your 800m race time by multiplying by 1.40. Example: 600m time trial in 1:24.0 = 84 seconds x 1.4 = 117.6 seconds, which is 1:57.6 for 800m (predicted race time). It's close enough to give you a good idea about where you stand relative to your goal.

Regards,

Tinman