Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

What the heck wrote:

Get a clue, guys. It is MJ and then everybody else.

Get as clue, they were being polite. Bird schooled Jordan when he came into the league.

My mind is reeling. Why don't you give an example of Lebron shutting someone down before you give him the title of best shutdown defender ever?

Yet by Jordan's 2nd season, despite missing almost the entire season with a broken foot, he reeled off 63 points in a playoff game against Bird and the Celtics in what has been heralded by some as one of the greatest playoff performances in NBA history. Funny how I've heard people say by the time Jordan and the Bulls started contending going further than the Bulls that Bird was old and past his prime. That was what, about 10 years into Bird's career when the Bulls started making conference finals. Yet from 96-98 Jordan was older and nobody mentioned Jordan being past his prime because he was busy hitting jump shots over everyone and winning championships.

So Bird entered the NBA 5 years before Jordan and had a hall of fame cast almost immediately. Jordan came in, out performed Bird at EVERYTHING individually then finally got a good surrounding team and easily eclipsed anything Bird ever did. You want to know who was better? Ask Bird himself... Wait, someone already did. He said Jordan.

Conundrum wrote:

Lets do a little comparison of Jordan, Bird and Magic. Lets reduce the team factor and examine their efficiency factors.

(1)Who had the best 3point shot?

BIRD .376 (Jordan-.327, Magic-.303)

(2) Who had the highest field goal percentage?

MAGIC .520 (Jordan, Bird basically tied,.497,.496)

(3) Who had the highest free throw average?

BIRD .886 (Magic .848, Jordan .835)

(4) Who had the most assists per game?

MAGIC 11.2 (Bird 6.3 Jordan 5.3)

(5) Who had the most rebounds per game?

BIRD 10.0 (Magic 7.2 Jordan 6.2)

Give 3 points for 1st, 2 points for 2nd, 1 point for 3rd

Total

BIRD 12.5

MAGIC 11

JORDAN 6.5

Bird had the highest efficiency. No I didn't use total points, if you put up more shots you should score more points. I didn't use championships because that depends too much on your team and the competitor teams.

This just shows there is room for discussion.

Jordan had the ability to create more shots. That indicates how great he was. Clyde Drexler said Jordan was the hardest player he's ever tried to defend because no matter what, Jordan found a way to get his shots. You're like the fan saying Ichiro is a better hitter than Ryan Howard because Ichiro has a higher batting average.

michael JORDAN best!!!!

most underrated players:

Scottie Pippen

the Penny Hardaway of 1994-1998

Grant Hill

Just looking at objective data. One players quotes about another is the lowest form of reliable information. My point is that their is room for discussion.

The Celtics swept the Bulls in the series you're talking about. Also, MJ never had serious injuries like Bird did. Bird's career would have been much better without the almost constant injury problems and he was still one of the best five players ever by any available metric.

If you ever saw Wilt play at his very best you wouldn't ask that question.

nbafanatic wrote:

Idiot. The Bulls had a bigger difference in games won as compared to the previous season in Jordan's first year than Pippen's first year. Jordan made a bad team a playoff team. Jordan with Pippen, Grant and Phil made them champions. To win a championship you typically need at least these three things: a star player, a good coach and a quality surounding cast. Larry Bird had this. Michael Jordan had this. Magic Johnson had this. Who had the most success? Michael Jordan. Next topic.

You're ridiculous

The Jordan Years

1997-98 Chicago 62 20 .756 1st Central Division 15 6 .714 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1996-97 Chicago 69 13 .841 1st Central Division 15 4 .789 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1995-96 Chicago 72 10 .878 1st Central Division 15 3 .833 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1994-95 Chicago 47 35 .573 3rd Central Division 5 5 .500 Lost East Conf Semis

1993-94 Chicago 55 27 .671 2nd Central Division 6 4 .600 Lost East Conf Semis

1992-93 Chicago 57 25 .695 1st Central Division 15 4 .789 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1991-92 Chicago 67 15 .817 1st Central Division 15 7 .682 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1990-91 Chicago 61 21 .744 1st Central Division 15 2 .882 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1989-90 Chicago 55 27 .671 2nd Central Division 10 6 .625 Lost East Conf Finals

add Phil Jackson coach

1988-89 Chicago 47 35 .573 5th Central Division 9 8 .529 Lost East Conf Finals

add Bill Cartwright

add Craig Hodges

lose Oakley

1987-88 Chicago 50 32 .610 2nd Central Division 4 6 .400 Lost East Conf Semis

add Scottie Pippen

add Horace Grant

1986-87 Chicago 40 42 .488 5th Central Division 0 3 .000 Lost East Conf 1st Rd

1985-86 Chicago 30 52 .366 4th Central Division 0 3 .000 Lost East Conf 1st Rd

add Charles Oakley

1984-85 Chicago 38 44 .463 3rd Central Division 1 3 .250 Lost East Conf 1st Rd <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

add Michael Jordan

1983-84 Chicago 27 55 .329 5th Central Division - - - DNQ

1982-83 Chicago 28 54 .341 4th Central Division - - - DNQ

1981-82 Chicago 34 48 .415 5th Central Division - - - DNQ

The Bird Years

1991-92 Boston 51 31 .622 1st Atlantic Division 6 4 .600 Lost East Conf Semis

1990-91 Boston 56 26 .683 1st Atlantic Division 5 6 .455 Lost East Conf Semis

1989-90 Boston 52 30 .634 2nd Atlantic Division 2 3 .400 Lost East Conf 1st Rd

1988-89 Boston 42 40 .512 3rd Atlantic Division 0 3 .000 Lost East Conf 1st Rd

1987-88 Boston 57 25 .695 1st Atlantic Division 9 8 .529 Lost East Conf Finals

1986-87 Boston 59 23 .720 1st Atlantic Division 13 10 .565 Lost NBA Finals

1985-86 Boston 67 15 .817 1st Atlantic Division 15 3 .833 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1984-85 Boston 63 19 .768 1st Atlantic Division 13 8 .619 Lost NBA Finals

1983-84 Boston 62 20 .756 1st Atlantic Division 15 8 .652 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

1982-83 Boston 56 26 .683 2nd Atlantic Division 2 5 .286 Lost East Conf Semis

1981-82 Boston 63 19 .768 1st Atlantic Division 7 5 .583 Lost East Conf Finals

1980-81 Boston 62 20 .756 1st Atlantic Division 12 5 .706 NBA ChampionsWon NBA Finals

add Robert Parrish

add Kevin McHale

1979-80 Boston 61 21 .744 1st Atlantic Division 5 4 .556 Lost East Conf Finals <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Add Larry Bird

1978-79 Boston 29 53 .354 5th Atlantic Division - - - DNQ

add Tiny Archibald

1977-78 Boston 32 50 .390 3rd Atlantic Division - - - DNQ

add Cornbread

Grant Hill was an amazingly fast, aggressive dominant player in his good years that allowed Chicago to win so much. Pippen was under rated too.Jordan had a number of the most amazing individual athletic games, this is true. But as far has his total performance over his career he was not a basketball god; He was OVER rated. He might be the best, probably but debatable, but the data shows him to be very human. At times he just was NOT efficient.His supporting cast was severely underated and really Jordan did NOTHING to change that perception. Yes Grant Hill was amazing. His supporting cast made Jordan a basketball god.

pinched hairs wrote:

michael JORDAN best!!!!

most underrated players:

Scottie Pippen

the Penny Hardaway of 1994-1998

Grant Hill

Bird had 24/10/6 for his career. Who else put up those numbers? Maybe Oscar.

The data doesn't lie. Everything else is subjective.

Conundrum wrote:

Just looking at objective data. One players quotes about another is the lowest form of reliable information. My point is that their is room for discussion.

Theories We Should Consider wrote:

Jordan had the ability to create more shots. That indicates how great he was. Clyde Drexler said Jordan was the hardest player he's ever tried to defend because no matter what, Jordan found a way to get his shots. You're like the fan saying Ichiro is a better hitter than Ryan Howard because Ichiro has a higher batting average.

Not only does this not refute what I said, you seem to have left out several other key acquisitions by the Celtics. The made a bigger push in Jordan's first year. Additionally, it is well documented the work that Jordan put in with Pippen that Pippen himself will tell you made him who he became. You sir are ridiculous. Beyond that, it seems you wish only to evaluate Jordan on his first three seasons, when he had less quality coaching and support than Bird recieved his first three seasons. Yet Jordan was still easily more productive on the court. It's a team game Malmo. Bird didn't win any of those games by himself. Why assume Jordan should have to? At no Point in Bird's career was he a better player. He was on a better team, but he wasn't a better player.None of Boston's championship teams would have beat the Bulls' championship teams because Jordan was unstopable.

So let's see... Bulls add Jordan, win 11 more games and make playoffs. Jordan injured in year two but still make playoffs. Jordan returns and they win 40 and make playoffs. And you claim Jordan didn't make them better? They then add Pippen AND Grant and win 7-10 more games their first two years. Seems to me Jordan made a bigger impact individually than Pippen and Grant did collectively. Then they add Phil Jackson at coach and make history. Yep, that sums it up. Your rebuttal falls flat on its head.

Conundrum wrote:

The data doesn't lie. Everything else is subjective.

You're manipulating the data how you see fit. Jordan is the all time leader in PPG, the single most important stat in basketball. Jordan was the greatest. Shooting percentages aren't nearly as important as points scored.

nbafanatic wrote:

Beyond that, it seems you wish only to evaluate Jordan on his first three seasons, when he had less quality coaching and support than Bird recieved his first three seasons.

I think Jordan's first 6 seasons should suffice to show how little of an impact he had as a piece of a TEAM.

Bird, on the other hand, made everyone else around him better. Cornbread didn't do it. Tiny, who is the only player in league history to lead the league in scoring and assists in the same year, didn't do it.

Bird didn't need coaching, he was a coach on the court.

When it comes to the game of basketball, Bird is the player with the most savvy basketball sense of anyone who has ever played the game. Bird's awareness of the entire court was unparalleled (with maybe the exception of Magic in fast break mode). He had spatial awareness at all times, whether or not he was running Bostons high-powered fast break, or rebounding, or baseline drives, or diving and flat on his back. At all times his brain was running, in fast motion, knowing exactly what the next move to make. He was the master of fakes and deception.

Jordan was an individual player. His skill was his athleticism, but his basketball sense paled againts the likes of Bird or Magic.

nbafanatic wrote:

So let's see... Bulls add Jordan, win 11 more games and make playoffs. Jordan injured in year two but still make playoffs. Jordan returns and they win 40 and make playoffs. And you claim Jordan didn't make them better? .

The win 10 more games and they STILL sucked. Bird was conducting basketball clinics at the Bulls expense.

grant hill played for detroit, orlando, and phoenix, never chicago. are you thinking of horace grant or dennis rodman? they played for chicago.

Bird was a great, great team player. Jordan produced big numbers and was a great defensive player. They were both great in the end of game situations. Bird's career was really affected by his injuries. If Len Bias had lived and Bird had stayed healthy, that Celtics team would have won more championships. The top NBA teams in the 1980s were deeper than any in the 1990s. Bird, McHale, Parrish, Cornbread Maxwell, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, etc. Many of those Boston teams were deep. And they played teams like Philly, with Moses, Dr. J., Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney, ..., and L.A. with Magic, Kareem, James Worthy, Mychal Cooper, .... Jordan faced L.A. after Kareem in 1991, the Suns with peak Barkley, Thunder Dan Majerle, Chambers, Mayor KJ, Hornacek? quite a solid team, but later Seattle with Detlef Schrempf, Shawn Kemp and the Glove, and Utah with Stockton, Malone, and Hornacek, but not much else.

Yes it was Horace Grant I was thinking of. He's so underrated I forgot his name.