The bottom line... wrote:
...is that the BYU runners typically have a competitive advantage. Rather than give them a free pass from the age restrictions because of their chosen religion, they should compete in D-II instead. Problem solved.
Haha so then you could get your trash kicked by a D2 team? And start making excuses about that too?!
How about you get fast too? wrote:
Haha so then you could get your trash kicked by a D2 team? And start making excuses about that too?!
There aren't any age limitations in D-II, genius. It levels the playing field.
On the other hand, good job proving that there isn't any shortage of ignorant a-holes on Letsrun!
You are probably correct when they go to a foreign country but there are alot of mormons on bikes in the area I live in. Also when they get back they get red-shirted and have a whole year to get in shape which more than makes up for what they did or didn't do the two years before. I know because I coached a couple of mormons that left after their freshmen year then came back, red shirted and ran. I don't think that 26 year olds should be able to compete with 18 year olds, period!!
The bottom line... wrote:
...is that the BYU runners typically have a competitive advantage. Rather than give them a free pass from the age restrictions because of their chosen religion, they should compete in D-II instead. Problem solved.
The bottom line isn't that they get a "free pass" because of their religion. They get a "free pass" because it's in the NCAA rule book- go on an extended charity/community service thing and you got your eligibility clock frozen.
If Chris Derrick joined the Peace Corps tomorrow, somehow got assigned to helping out in Kenya or something (I'm not sure how assignments work in the Peace Corps) and spent 3 years running 130mpw at altitude, guess what- he gets the same "free pass." Most collegiate runners don't take advantage of this exception. Don't knock the Mormons for doing something ANYONE can do if they so choose.
I mean, there are plenty of things to knock Mormons for. . . but this is a well-documented exception to the NCAA age limit. Basically, the NCAA is rewarding charity and service. If you're a 29:30 10k runner and you want to spent a bunch of years living in a hut in Africa running 130 miles a week in between doing a bunch of volunteer stuff all day, in order to become more competitive at the NCAA level, hey, go for it. The NCAA is totally fine with it.
I don't think anyone has really mentioned this. Everyone keeps talking about "breaking the age limit" and a "super old" BYU team, but let's actually take a look at BYU's top 5 from the Dellinger:
1. Miles Batty (22)
2. Thomas Gruenwald (20)
3. Brandon Hebbert (24)
4. Rich Nelson (24)
5. Alden Bahr (21)
Average Age= 22.2 (sounds pretty reasonable) Keep in mind that none of these runners (or any on the team) are over the "24 yr-old limit" that everyone is claiming to exist. None of them are even over 24!
Now, lets actually look at this.
-Gruenwald is in his third year (same year as runners such as Centrowitz) and hasn't served a mission yet which would mean he has no relative advantage or disadvantage.
=1 Neutral
-Batty and Bahr both graduated in '05 (the same year as runners such as Bumbulough and Bethke), the only difference is that they both went on missions and have two years less of training than many of the other collegiate runners their age. I would say this puts them at a relative disadvantage to many of the other 21 and 22 year olds in the NCAA.
=2 at Disadvantage
-Hebbert and Nelson both took two years off to serve missions and are thus two years older than many other seniors in the NCAA. Even though I don't agree (because of the time off), lets just say this puts them at a relative advantage.
=2 at Advantage
Now let's add this all up. One neutral, two at a disadvantage, and two at an advantage. Looks like it all evens out to me. So stop complaining.
craigmac4h wrote:
They get a "free pass" because it's in the NCAA rule book-
Yes, I know. I am quite familiar with the NCAA rule book, thank you.
Truthfully, that rule should not exist! Eliminate the rule (which provides LDS students with a big advantage, by the way), allow the D-I kids to have a level playing field, and let BYU compete in D-II where there aren't any age restrictions.
Observation wrote:
...let's actually take a look at BYU's top 5 from the Dellinger:
1. Miles Batty (22)
2. Thomas Gruenwald (20)
3. Brandon Hebbert (24)
4. Rich Nelson (24)
5. Alden Bahr (21)
Keep in mind that none of these runners (or any on the team) are over the "24 yr-old limit" that everyone is claiming to exist. None of them are even over 24!
Nice job omitting one of the most compelling facts. Now, how about taking the time to re-create that little list of yours WITH their actual college eligibility grade (frosh/sopy/jr/sr) after their age!
You DO realize that these guys will be a year older next year, and the average age will therefore increase. If they had a guy who graduated HS and turned 19 before his frosh year at BYU then went on two year "mission" he would be 21 upon his return to the team. Okay... a 21 year old frosh, let's then say he redshirts a year because he got fat on his mission, now he is a 22 year old RS Frosh. So when he's a senior he will be how old??? 26! A 26 year old full grown man that competes against 17 (Fernandez last year) and 18 year old freshman BOYS. Please tell me, how is this fair??? (Fernandez then still whoops their ass)
Oh the tears.
I want to win the kiddie races but the big boys are here.
Waaahhhh.
trollism wrote:
Oh the tears.
I want to win the kiddie races but the big boys are here.
Waaahhhh.
Wow, I'm sure that you are absolutely hilarious in the post-game lobbies on Xbox Live! Another "1337" teenager who can really make us feel TERRIBLE about simply wanting a fair D-I competition. Impressive!
if i was a mormom i would take my mission in the Rift Valley of Kenya and help out the local Kalenjin tribe.
Damn bunch of whiners on this thread. Okay, let's put 7-8 no-name East Africans (all under 21 years old) and put them on a Div I team.
All this talk about fairness is so stupid. Like it or not, fairness is defined by the NCAA. If you aren't breaking NCAA rules, it's fair. Anybody, Mormon or non, can take advantage of the "Mormon exception" if they wanted to. If it was such an advantage, all the big programs would exploit it. But, none of them do.
dean moriarty wrote:
If it was such an advantage, all the big programs would exploit it. But, none of them do.
Garbage! That's simply because the "big programs" can't convince blue-chip talent to join the Peace Corps for two years before arriving on campus. If they could, they would!
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but what I want to know is why are you guys so fast then? I've seen lots of people take 2 years off and only a small fraction make it back. And its not for lack of trying.
You guys make it back 1) VERY quickly and 2) BETTER then you have ever been
That is why its fishy. You are physically destroyed, haven't run a step in 2 years, were a decent to good high school runner, and all of a sudden you're an All American? Don't you think that comes across as... odd?
They are just as legit as Ok State buying kenyans for their team
I graduated high school in '98 and went to BYU. We had a pretty sick recruiting class. Everyone went on a mission in '99. After we got back, more than a third of the guys ended up dropping off the team because they couldn't get back into shape. I gained over 25 pounds on my mission. Your body doesn't handle going from 80 mpw to 10 miles over 2 years. I ran less than 5 times the whole time there. I ate rice, beans, and chicken and that was about it every day. It was terribly nutritionally.
The year after returning almost everyone got injured at least once. I ended up having a decent senior year, 3:46 1500. I was more mature mentally than the guys I ran against but there was no way it was a benefit to be off training for two years. It took me a year to get back to where I was as a freshman. I understand the beef, but talk to any guys who went. It only hurts your training. If it was that big of a help, we'd have more NCAA champions.
jamaicanmecrazy wrote:
its bullshit, just like the mormon religion.
Best response right here.
1stTimeMarathoner wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but what I want to know is why are you guys so fast then? I've seen lots of people take 2 years off and only a small fraction make it back. And its not for lack of trying.
You guys make it back 1) VERY quickly and 2) BETTER then you have ever been
That is why its fishy. You are physically destroyed, haven't run a step in 2 years, were a decent to good high school runner, and all of a sudden you're an All American? Don't you think that comes across as... odd?
Yeah, you have it right man. The whole mormon program where we currently have 50,000 missionaries serving all around the world is in reality just a way to undermine the NCAA and produce winning xc teams.
Let me be loud and clear: YOU CAN'T TRAIN ON A MISSION. NO ONE DOES. 10 miles over 2 years is not training. Walking miles everyday is not training. Doing pushups in the morning is not training. Playing pick-up b-ball with some kids is not training. There is absolutely nothing that actively improves or even maintains fitness levels for missionaries that previously ran competitive XC.
The fact that people come back and do well is amazing. Is it possible to come back and succeed? Absolutely. But it is extremely difficult.
If people have other concerns, please ask, because their are so many comments being thrown around by people that are obviously unaware about the missionary program(You cannot choose to go to a Kenya, you are assigned where to go, there's no input from the prospective missionary).
Actually, you can train on a mission. Or you could quit the church and not go on a mission. It's cruel that they force young boys to go out and get hated on by people everyday. These are just children and they get forced to go out and be degraded everyday, I seriously don't get the whole LDS thing.