Marathon Pace (MP) % of HR Max?

I have to agree w/others on this. 3 x 5km @ HM effort is too tough. I would do 3-5x 5km intervals at MP w/ 4 min. rest (of course adding # of intervals as one adapts).

5K too fast? Running a 1/2M at M pace is pretty fast too...

I contend this man is on the verge of 2:36 or better M. When I was a youngster, whatever I ran for 1/2M, in training, with no tapering, was what I DID run the Marathon in. He can probably run 16:30 for 5K and 1:15 1/2M...

3 x 5K in 17:45 = 1:15/21.1 x 5... does not sound too much..

It's over a minute slower than his current (5K) fitness level.... The object is to become used to running at 1/2M pace... It's a waste to work at faster than 10K race pace.. He can run 6:00 pace long tempo's obviously, for 20K..

Surely he can run 5:40 pace for 5K... If you are tired after 2, forget the third one. You should be able to do 3 during the third 5K rep session (3 or 4 weeks). (Recommendation: take 10 min. breaks between each 5K).

Prediction: 2:33 Marathon in 6 months, if you don't increase mileage/intensity above what you're doing NOW.

Braavo Furgi wrote:Surely he can run 5:40 pace for 5K... If you are tired after 2, forget the third one. You should be able to do 3 during the third 5K rep session (3 or 4 weeks). (Recommendation: take 10 min. breaks between each 5K).

Not to be argumentative, but to offer a different angle, I suppose with long rest like that (10 min), 3 x 5k at HM pace might be doable (probably not the first time out of the box, though). I remember a short while back that malmo suggested (not that every word out of his mouth is a gold nugget either) that if you can do a lot of work at HM pace in training, your HM time is too slow. I've personally found that 2 x 5k at realistic HM pace (with short rest - 400m jog I think it was) was pretty darn strenuous (I've only tried it once, when I was in shape to try it), but like nippon-dude said, 3-5 x 5k (or 2 x 10k, or 20k continuous) at MP (or even a hair quicker, when you're ready for it) should be a pretty invigorating session.

Well, since this debate has arisen from my questions and training, I thought that I'd chime in. Of course, I have to agree with the guy who says that I can run a 2:33 in the fall! Grin.

My ability to complete 3x5K at HM pace w/ 800 jog depends on what my HM time really is. I'm really not sure what my current level of fitness is. Going back to the original statement, aside from this one run, my training is certainly not as good as my training prior to my 2:38. For example, I averaged just 2:44 for the 8x800 (200 jog) earlier the week. Those were not all out, but they felt maybe a bit faster than 10K effort. (On the flip side, I could have run a few more miles at that 6:03 pace this weekend; I wasn't racing the workout.) Although I suspect that my March marathon will be closer to 6:20 pace, let's assume that I'm in 6:15 shape. I should, therefore, be able to run a half at 5:57 pace. Could I run 3x5K at 5:57? Probably, since I was just a few seconds off that for the 12 continuous miles in the 20 miler, but it suppose that it would depends on the day. If I really am in 6:03 marathon shape (and I can assure you that I don't have the guts to find out), I would not be able to do 3x5K in 5:40.

I was planning on doing one last session of mile repeats at 10K pace this week, and then go to the longer sessions at 10M, 1/2 and M paces for the final four weeks and the two-week taper. I had traditionally held on to 10K repeats and alternated MP and 5K pace workouts, but you all have convinced me to try the no faster than 10M pace route -- mainly longer work in the 168-173 and 173-179 zones. (I'll also shoot for two more 22s and one long MP.)

I'm very grateful for the guidance and this debate, and I welcome any other recommendations. Thanks.

Hi I am 56 year old runner with a max HR of 180 bpm and when I am at my best a resting HR of 36 BPM

I recently ran a Marathon with an average of 160 BPM which is about 88% of max HR

see polar data

https://flow.polar.com/training/analysis/791025621

Nice running, Andy.

And thanks for adding the data and bumping this thread. I hadn't seen this one. Perfect read for my morning coffee.

great pacing, great time, great run

Were you running by HR, pace, or just by feel?

This seems pretty high to me, given several other sites that cite medical research and suggest lower than 88%. 88-90% is getting close to exceeding the aerobic threshold and it also exceeds the 85% max HR when you hit the lactate threshold. Can you back this claim up with research?

Jack24 wrote:

This seems pretty high to me, given several other sites that cite medical research and suggest lower than 88%. 88-90% is getting close to exceeding the aerobic threshold and it also exceeds the 85% max HR when you hit the lactate threshold. Can you back this claim up with research?

I tend to think it's an average of 88%, ergo, you start out at 85% and by the end of the race it's around 91% - with an average of 88%.

It's not rocket science Jack24.

My 2p worth is that from what I've been taught and my experience says it should be run entirely (last 1k perhaps aside) in Zone 4. Starting closer to the bottom HR and finishing closer to the top HR with HR creep.

The question might be which 'zone 4' though? % HR max? % HRR? % LTHR? HRR is really only worth using if you have a really low RHR, that is considerably lower than 60, say 40 (like me). LTHR is really only worth using if you have had your LTHR properly tested. So most people should go with % HR max. But again that needs to be tested properly too as 220 - Age is completely rubbish.

For me (48 yo) my HR max is 185, RHR is 40 and LTHR is 166. So Zone 4 is;

95-100% of LTHR -> 158-166

80-90% HRR -> 156-171

80-90% MHR -> 148-167

I start out at a pace which I know according to my current fitness will result in about 155 (bottom of zone 4) by 2k (i.e. once it has settled), then for the same pace my HR rises to about 160 (mid zone 4) by 20k and for the same pace my HR rises to about 165 (top of zone 4) by 35k. I make sure my HR doesn't go into zone 5 (i.e. >166) until I have less than 3k to go.

Bump

SP3 wrote:

Thank you for all of your input Pete. Great stuff. I had a long run planned for yesterday (16 miles). I decided to do a HADD mini test in the middle of my run to get a gauge where my marathon pace is currently at:

Mile 1 @ 120HR (8:42)

Mile 2 @ 130HR (7:40)

Mile 3 @ 140HR (6:48)

Mile 4 @ 150HR (6:02)

Mile 5 @ 160HR (5:44)

I felt fairly comfortable at 150. Could have sustained that pace for about an hour plus. I imagine my MP pace is somewhere between 145-148. I have a half marathon scheduled for Feb 5. I plan to go out at MP pace for 10 miles and if all is going well, push it for the last 5K.

Interesting test re: Hadd training. Is there more to this test? I'll google threads on here re: Hadd training.