Sub 1:50 800m Training

49/51 splits if all you care about is time. There are very few 800m runners that set their PRs off of negative splits. Almost all the big kicks you see are really just people maintaining pace (maybe not that last 50-75ms ). This doesn't really help you when you end up in a championship race. The british milers club has a good article about 800mm pacing. Pretty much it is 200m above race pace, 400 at race pace, and 200 slightly slower. 55/58 is about right for a 1:53 guy. Accelerating at the end costs energy which could have been used to maintain the pace earlier.

Pmoax wrote:

This is actually a good question that I ask myself a lot. Prior to this past summer I was the same as Symmonds and Borza, sit and kick. The only problem was that sometimes I left too much and had huge kicks at the end. My best race my splits were (26,29,30,28). My tactic by the end of summer was to go out hard for 400m, go easy for 200m and then kick as hard as I could last 200m.

That Bmc article is excellent. Required reading for 800m guys. First 20s or so fast, next 400m slower but still relaxed then last 200m the inevitable slowdown. a 1:44 would be about 25/26/26/27 give or take a 1/2 second or so for each.

here it is (again)

http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/2002autumn.pdf

it also talks about the different energy systems and how to train them.

bump so i can find this

Borzakovskiy's fastest race

Bucher 24.3, Yuriy 25.3

Bucher 49.2, Yuriy ~51?

Bucher ~1:15? Yuriy 1:16.5

Bucher 1:42.75 Yuriy 1:42.47

Bucher ~24/25/26/28

Yuriy ~25/26/25/26

I havent seen any good data on what Bucher did in his training...what power from 500m-700m! I love that blood and guts running--he really had developed 2 good kicks--one at 500m to scare off the pack and another at 700m to hold on to his lead. Love it.

If you look at Borza's races I think you can see that his speed vs the fields in all the WC races and in his PR was ALL turnover related. He strides the whole first 650m and then pulls his form forward and has plenty of gas left in his hip flexors to keep his legs churning. Watch his turnover vs the rest of the fields in these races. The only one where he came up short was in 2005 and he just got boxed.

Speed is just two things...stride length and turnover. Pushing power off the ground and carriage strength to put one foot in front of the other. Drills and plyos basically should be focused on carriage strength and less on pushing power in my book. Also, we come back to some slight downhill intervals to focus on turnover while distressed. Could be some creative coaching technique in here somewhere.

Just wanted to say that this has been one of my favorite threads this year. I used to run 1:48.71 twenty years ago and 1:52 as a Master's competitor a couple years back. The 800m was always one of the funnest races to run. Being a miler, I relied on just powering out from the start, throw in a surge right after 300m when everyone was relaxing and another with 250m to go. It hurt like hell at the end, but it put you in position (if you were having a good day) to run a very fast time.

Anyways ~ good reading.

tony

OS4, what would you predict my indoor 800 to be off of a 1:21 600 tt indoor?

Very interesting read, its further proved that I need to increase my mileage if I really desire to become an international competitor in the future.

Well I'll be damned! 39 pages later and this thread is still pumping! Glad to see people still supplying info to this thread! As I get closer to my indoor season, as an 800/1500 guy -- What's the general idea for a good indoor season. Here's a 2 week outline from my past 2 weeks: Please do share w/ me if you have any suggestions, however this training is particularly mirrored towards the training done in the past at the U of O :

Monday pm. GYM DAY (22nd) 6x400 hills (8% incline) up-hill repeats (e,m,h – 6:40pace,6:20pace,6:00 pace) then progressive build each mile from 6:20-5:30 (5 miles)

Tuesday a.m. 4miles

P.m.6 miles progressive (6:45-5:45)

Wednesday pm 6-7 miles --- Weightlift/CORE

Thursday a.m. 3 miles on track (15:48 – 79/400m)

p.m. 6 miles Progressive (6:45-5:45)

Friday pm. Easy miles/bike

Saturday : 6x800 Progressive w/2 min jogs (2:26,2:24,2:22,2:20,2:17,2:14) + 300(48),200(30),100(13-14) – Jog half distance for recovery

Sunday : 10mile Run Easy

Monday pm. 7 miles easy

Tuesday am. 4 miles

P.m 6x400m hills (8% incline) up-hill repeats (e,m,h – 6:40pace,6:20pace,6:00 pace) then progressive build each mile from 6:20-5:30 (5 miles)

Wednesday am 4 miles

pm 4 miles

Thursday Pm 4x1200, 400jog recovery...3:42(74),3:39(73),3:36(72),3:36(72) – 2 sets 5x200 at 32-33 w/300m jog and 600m jog between sets

-- Weightlift/CORE

Friday Pm bike/easy mileage

Saturday Pm 3sets 5x400 at 68-69 w/ 45 sec rest – 4 min between sets – 5x200 at 32 w/ 30 sec rest

Sunday pm 10 mile long run

Note, this is to get my aerobically fit first to run a good 1500m - Then the speed comes later as OLDSUB4 has suggested in the earlier part of this thread.. Thanks!

Anbessa

Hey guys,

Do you have any advice for a 51/1:53/3:57(1500m) athlete who has in recent years had no trouble PRing in the longer stuff (3k-8k) but has been unable to get the power going in teh 800/1500? This is despite setting a PB at 400m...

Hey, oldsub4, could you email me,because i have some questions which are difficult and need profesional help. Thank you. email : ojevkam@yahoo.com

OldSub4 wrote:

Speed is just two things...stride length and turnover. Pushing power off the ground and carriage strength to put one foot in front of the other. Drills and plyos basically should be focused on carriage strength and less on pushing power in my book. Also, we come back to some slight downhill intervals to focus on turnover while distressed. Could be some creative coaching technique in here somewhere.

I think Arthur Lydiard did it with Snell & co. with that half mile downhill section on the famous hill circuit training, and perhaps Peter Coe adapted this unknowingly when he marked out Rivelin Valley Road for Seb.

Also, Lydiard did advocate downhill repeats of shorter length alternating with the hill circuit days during his hill phase training.

I've read that Lasse Viren did downhill repeats like 600m on a slope in the forest. Definitely affects not only your turnover, but trains you to hold that slight trunk forward lean while keeping a straight line from head-shoulders-hips-foot even as you have to control yourself from falling over. Of course this works provided the gradient is not too steep. I think Viren used to do around 6 times 600m downhill 3 times a week during his strength phase, and his training was somewhat adapted from Lydiard.

For 800m runners this could work well too, alternating uphill with downhill repeats. But apply with discretion.

foomiler wrote:

I've read that Lasse Viren did downhill repeats like 600m on a slope in the forest. I think Viren used to do around 6 times 600m downhill 3 times a week during his strength phase

I highly doubt that Lasse did any of this kind of "three times a week" sort of work. Lasse´s training was focused to training by 5 different intensities and he or his coach didn´t use a one week or 7-day etc. microcycle. HE LISTENED HIS BODY. And through all "phases" he had those basic training tools included, only changing training focus a little bit when it was time to do so.

I think that kind of system could work for us others too, working with the body without following the same weekly or so routine all the time when you know the day´s training session when you just check what day of the week is going.

I see the same 3 workouts of 5x600 downhill Foomiler does.

From Sept. 2004 running Times article on Viren:

Week of April 9-16, 1972

Meter converted to miles by the magazine.

S AM 10 m aerobic

PM 5 miles with pickups

M AM 10 m Aerobic

PM 5x600 on a downward sloping hill

T AM 6.2 m Aerobic

PM 16.1 m aerobic

W AM 6.2 m Aerobic

PM 5x600 on a downward sloping hill

T AM 5 m Aerobic

PM 12.4 miles (1:20:00)

F AM Massage

PM 7.5 m with 1x1000 fast

S AM 5 m Aerobic

PM 5x600 on a downward sloping hill

So can we get back to why this is of value?

Well that´s a training week of Lasse which I hadn´t seen before. Also it´s surprising that those hill reps are done downhill. I have other Lasse´s training weeks from spring -72 and there isn´t that kind of work.

foomiler wrote:

For 800m runners this could work well too, alternating uphill with downhill repeats. But apply with discretion.

Yes, I think this is key-it is so easy to get injured that this form of training is not useful until all of the other forms of training have been almost fully maximized-base work, strength training, UPhill training, pylometrics, intervals, sprints. I can't really think of a better way to get injured then running fast downhill multiple times, but the benefits of leg speed and relaxation would be undeniable. Plus I would think that would would get better at it the more you practice it, and if you can survive those then running on flat ground must seem much easier on the legs. Large risk, but large reward.

And now for the typical bad running metaphor.

If mileage, tempos and intervals are your accending layers of cake and sprints are the icing on the very top then surely these downhill sprints are the cherry at the very pinnacle, right?

Most of the advise on this thread has been for 800/1500 runners. I would like to hear some training suggestions for a high school 400/800. Basically how would it differ from the 800/1500 kid.

northwest master wrote:

Just wanted to say that this has been one of my favorite threads this year. I used to run 1:48.71 twenty years ago and 1:52 as a Master's competitor a couple years back. The 800m was always one of the funnest races to run. Being a miler, I relied on just powering out from the start, throw in a surge right after 300m when everyone was relaxing and another with 250m to go. It hurt like hell at the end, but it put you in position (if you were having a good day) to run a very fast time.

Anyways ~ good reading.

tony

Tony

great to see that you are keeping up on the discussion--congrats to Mack on winning state--I am in Washington myself and look forward to seeing how he does on the track this spring.

Rising halfer wrote:

OS4, what would you predict my indoor 800 to be off of a 1:21 600 tt indoor?

Very interesting read, its further proved that I need to increase my mileage if I really desire to become an international competitor in the future.

My freshman year in college I ran a 600mm indoors (rolling start) and ran 1:19...I ended up running 1:50.8 from the gun. Generally through college when i was NOT developing my strength I would run 600m in 1:18-1:19 and consistantly run 1:49. I think you need to add 29-32 seconds to a rolling start to have a prediction. The differential is completely dependent on your saerobic power (obviously you are fast enough to get to 600m in 1:21!). All you need to do is put a 29 200m at the end for a 1:50 800m which is national class collegiately...obviously a 29 200m isnt speed training!! -- you are right, work on your strength 75-80% of the time. Try to run 1:52 or better this year.

Anbessa

First of all, many thanks for starting this thread. I was out of the sport for many years but have really been drawn in by the discussion and the great input from around the world.

Secondly, my thoughts on your training..

--I think your strength emphasis is quite good. You are very strong aerobically and your LT threshhold is excellent.

--your aerobic power workouts need to be sped up. If you can run 3 miles in 15:48 on the track in a regular session, you should be able to tackle 4*1200 in 3:39, 3:33, 3:27, 3:21 and begin to work it down. 1:44 guys will do this workout in 3:24, 3:18, 3:12, 3:06 in December. I would not have believed this until I saw it but it was the key to getting to the next level.

--While you are appropriately featuring strength work, you cannot let your anaerobic system or CP systems atrophy. You need to pull back on one session and have a maintainence session at least 1 per week where you are doing something that is faster -- 200s or 300s averaging around race pace...only 3-6 of them though. We would do them as a second workout after the tempo.

Good luck, you are definately getting fit!