Why can't teachers be like they were in the 50's & early 60's

My guess is you were like my former peers at work, always complaining that they were worth more, owed more, under-appreciated, blah, blah, blah. My kids are engaged in plenty of sports, playmates, camping, and church-related activities. They aren't lacking for empathy or society. But they sure as heck won't be raised with a liberal, entitlement mentality. Here was the rest of the post, which you conveniently ignored:

I work part-time from home now as my physical limitations permit, and my wife has a flexible schedule. To be frank, a lot of families have all kinds of justifications for needing two incomes when one will suffice, just as Flagpole always says.

We all had to make sacrifices at one point. I was lucky enough to grow up in a decent neighborhood, though my stay-at-home mom had to sew the letters "OP" on my shorts, because we couldn't afford nice things, while my wife grew up in a neighborhood with bars on the windows and nightly violence. My kids are very fortunate, and they're going to do a lot of mission work. Gratitude and charity is a part of their daily M.O. as well.

But for all the bitching and moaning on this board about this and that, socioeconomic stratification will ALWAYS exist. POVERTY, no matter how hard you attempt to address it, will always exist. Mobility will exist too with the proper value system and a work ethic. And, at the end of the day, if you have your HEALTH, the world is your oyster and you haven't a damn thing to gripe about. If you have your health and aren't surrounded by people telling you how bad you have it and how you're owed something, which is what our culture has become, you can overcome any obstacle.

Q: Why can't teachers be like they were in the 50's & early 60's

A: Blacks

Sagarin wrote:

A bit insecure are we? Didn't get into a charter school? A parent of a daycare kid who distracts all of his peers in class and gets Ritalin like candy? Kids need structure, discipline, and a sense that everything isn't going to be handed to them. Maybe in your state charter schools don't outperform their peers, but that's not my experience. Oh, and despite the incessant feeling of might that comes from correcting another's typo (predictable), it may disappoint you that I received a public school education. Who the hell puts a bumper sticker on their car or signage in their front yard anyway? Probably you. It is not a constitutional mandate that locally controlled public schools must educate everyone, and they clearly don't, looking at our youth today. Nor should they.

Your whole statement does not change the fact that Charters schools as a whole all across the nation do not outperform public schools.

Maybe yours is a good one but the majority do not do a better job educating the population even though Charter schools have huge advantages over public schools one of which is that they can kick out whoever they want for any number of reasons in order to increase their scores public schools cannot do this and must educate everyone.

I do like a number of things that Charter schools are starting to do and public schools should take up those ideas in mass. My favorite is to pay teachers 15-20% more than the average public school teachers get paid but put them on a one year contract and hold them highly accountable for what goes on in their classroom and in the school. Right now there is little motivation for most teachers to succeed because their is no reward for doing well.

But as of right now Charter schools are not doing so well and are not the way to go in their current format.

Television was the root of all evil.

The downward trajectory of society can be traced to TV.

Think about it.

Azaleas wrote:

^Yes. I've had a couple of friends who worked at charter schools who were literally not paid for months on end until they finally quit 3/4 through the school year. Of course, they were also not education majors and clearly had no idea how to teach. Maybe teachers need a guild like doctors and lawyers have?

Sagarin, I am blown away by the 40 hr/week volunteer requirement. That doesn't make any sense to me. Are people volunteering 5-1 every day? Or are you lying?

No it was a typo, which is why I hate this primitive website, because you can't go back and correct a mistake, which invariably invites the clowns. It's 40 hours per year. However, many parents put in much more. Especially classroom parents. One gal actually did put in 336 hours for the year. The same is true at public schools.

My point on here, if you read through all of my posts, wasn't to brag. There are mediocre teachers, mediocre parents, and mediocre students. But schools should have the ability to kick out kids exhibiting bad behavior and teachers who underperform their peers.

It's amazing that for all of this equity between public schools and charter schools, all the parents I know are clamoring to get their kids into the charters. Fuuny - there was a day when schools were taught by nuns and had much higher student-teacher ratios.

*Funny... there's that public school edumacation kicking in again.

I recently volunteered in a HS built in 1940 that my dad attended in the 50s. It's a huge limestone building with marble floors and oak woodwork, surrounded by 50 year old trees. My dad wore a jacket and slacks to school.

This is a public urban school.

Now they have magnatized locks on the doors so the kids can't enter and exit during class time. some newer schools don't even have windows on the first floor. seems like HS used to be a place of higher learning, now it's a detention center.

ummmmmmmm wrote:

I do like a number of things that Charter schools are starting to do and public schools should take up those ideas in mass. My favorite is to pay teachers 15-20% more than the average public school teachers get paid but put them on a one year contract and hold them highly accountable for what goes on in their classroom and in the school. Right now there is little motivation for most teachers to succeed because their is no reward for doing well.

While this isn't true at our school, I would tend to agree.

I'm aware of this, but there is no real "last word" on the issue. Just used a reputable source, that's all.

Not a constitutional mandate, but it is FEDERAL LAW that public schools educate everyone. Those laws include Public Law 94-142, signed by Gerald Ford in 1975, and then follow up laws P.L. 101-476, IDEA 97, and then Section 504 from the passage of Civil Rights law in 1965. Every child in the United States is guaranteed a FAPE, or a free appropriate public education. That's the law of our land.

Public schools may not educate everyone, as you say, but neither do charter schools. But public schools do PROVIDE a free appropriate public education to everyone. You could get yourself appointed to US Secretary of Education and try to do better.

Doctors prescribe Ritalin, not teachers, so take that up with them. You should be lecturing them at medical schools not to prescribe it "like candy."

I'm too old to have gone to a charter school. They did not exist when I was in school. I was private school educated, wore a uniform, etc. And you would probably be surprised to find out that charter schools were proposed by, gasp, a liberal named Albert Shanker who ran the American Federation of Teachers, a labor union. It was when the greedy business interests discovered the money that could be made from running a charter school that this idea took a right turn. Look at what the owner(s) of a charter school make in terms of income. Teachers at charter schools make less, but owners and (usually) administrators make more than the public school principals.

Most people think that since they sat in public school for 13 years they know what it takes to run a school and teach children. First you need to know your subject area(s) and have a college degree in it, then you need to know what the state and federal standards and benchmarks are. Then you need to know what differentiated instruction is, what anchor charts are, what is a Frayer model, Thinking Routines, common classroom technology, academic vocabulary, reading and comprehension strategies, the five primary content areas for mathematics, . . . and on and on.

I don't get much of a feeling of might from correcting what is not a typo, but misuse of written language. Hitting wrong keys, or keys in the wrong order, are typos which we all make, but not knowing when to use an apostrophe is something else entirely.

My point is not to tell you that your charter school stinks. Research shows that students at charters do not outperform their public school counterparts. But the scary thing is parents pretty much need inside information to know if what their school officials are telling them is true (the reason for my bumper sticker comment), and charters provide financial incentives to those who start one up. They can tell parents, "We're all about the kids," while their hands are busy stuffing your pockets.

their pockets

Were the best students in the 50s and 60s more knowledgeable

than best today? I don't think so. However, the level in high school has dropped like a rock, because a larger fraction

of a given year goes to high school. it is just natural.

Many people claim it is the hippies and political correctness

that are ruining the school system. However, this is

incorrect. The problem is that everyone thinks he is a customer and that the teacher must learn my child (he is getting paid after all!) no matter how stupid he/she is.

It is always the teachers' fault. This attitude is

very middle class.

So a man of many aliases? It was a typo. I have a neuroimmmune illness, so I screw things up sometimes. Plus, my computer auto-edits, and I rarely check back over my work. what if i don't capitalize correctly? Ironic how you had to correct your own typo. What's your excuse? Instant karma.

I know all about teaching. Math in particular. I also know that if you refuse to join the teachers' union and pay your worthless dues, you immediately get blacklisted.

We live in one of the wealthiest five counties in the US. And, yet, people are clamoring to get their kids into charter schools, some of which are by lottery, others by wait-listing. They are not all self-selecting, though they do reserve the right to kick out problem kids, as they should be able to. Most charter parents know all about their school, because they are INVESTED in it.

The local public elementary school up the street let four kids get off of school grounds last year without anyone's knowledge. That would never happen at our charter. My kids WANT to read. My seven year old daughter begs me to play chess with her. Her school INSPIRES her. Of course, we don't have video games and tons of crap sitting in the closet, and they get plenty of outdoor time.

The biggest irony of all in your eyes perhaps... the P.E. teacher commented that my daughter has more humility than any other kid at the school.

Banter on about your cherished public school system and our bureaucratically constipated D.O.E. It is miserably failing our students, so I guess we are in violation of the LAW of the land, and we continue to climb down the ladder among developed countries of the world. Keep promoting "No Student Let Ahead." Our children, who don't learn to compete at an early age, are in for a very rude awakening.

As I previously mentioned, socioeconomic stratification will always exist. Unfortunately for our nation, people like you would opt for the lower, flatter pyramid, rather than thinner, steeper one.

Happy Father's Day. I hope your kids learn to become self-sufficient, strive for excellence, embrace charity, and are far less petty than their father.

"HIGH-PERFORMING CHARTER SCHOOLS HAVE SHOWN DRAMATIC STUDENT ACADEMIC GROWTH, GRADUATION RATES AND COLLEGE MATRICULATION, PARTICULARLY FOR LOW-INCOME AND MINORITY STUDENTS.

According to a review of the highest quality charter school studies, these schools produce positive effects in elementary and middle schools that far outpace other interventions such as class-size reduction. The RAND Corporation finds that in Chicago and Florida, charter students have a significantly better chance of finishing high school in four years and going to college. And in New York City and Boston, students who attend charter schools outperform their peers in the traditional public schools."

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/action/charter-schools

Read the whole thing.

Good day.

Required to volunteer 40 hours per week! What organization in the world would require this. Are you a Mormon on sabbatical, or you on probation in some 1/2 way house, or maybe a monk somewhere.

And you give more than 40. No job or family?

[quote]Sagarin wrote:

Umm, we're required to volunteer 40 hours per week, but we usually do more. quote]

I am not those other aliases.Most of your criticism is of the Beavis and Butt-Head "I hate stuff that sucks" element. Especially your personal attacks on me and my children.I can guarantee you that no law or test or measuring device can calculate what it means to care about the children in my charge, to study and to work ceaselessly to provide for their welfare. This is the dedication I was raised with, and which I strive to demonstrate now.I suppose I could leave and go run a company somewhere. I have the aptitude and the experience to do it. But I do believe, to paraphrase Mohandas Gandhi, that becoming weathy means you have to overcharge and rip people off on some level. There are those of us who actually try to live by spiritual values, to contribute to the good of our country, and to help the least among us.We may be the wealthiest country in the world, but that wealth does not "trickle down" to the poor. Like the Colorado River, which used to make it all the way to the Ocean but now runs dry somewhere between the California-Arizona border because people siphon from it at every turn.For the most part, our schools aren't "failing." Perhaps it is our society which is failing. Schools can only educate the children sent to them. For the most part, schools follow the laws and do the best that can be done under these circumstances.Inner-city schools have many problems, but so do inner cities.50% of the students in most schools I've visited and all of the ones I've worked at do not do their homework consistently. 50% of the kids are missing 7, 8, or 9 assignments every marking period. Part of this must be put on the parents. Teachers cannot follow every kid home and demand they put in their time. And kids need to do some work at home. Having no homework is not a good solution either.And teachers to not get "black listed" for not joining unions. Many districts do not have unionized teachers (most of the southern US states do not--hence their lower paid teachers). Teachers in unionized states or districts must join the union when they are hired or have their dues deducted and given back to the state. There was a court case on this, I think in Michigan, about 10 years ago when a teacher sued to not join a union. The teacher won. Unions are not perfect, and in a lot of cases I hate unions, but they are also no match for Big Business and the money corporations can generate for their agendas. Look what happened in Wisconsin a couple weeks back.By my experience, I believe that teachers, as a whole, are about 40% Republican and 60% Democrat. It does not seem like it should be, but I know an awful lot of teachers who only vote Republican.

Sagarin wrote:

"HIGH-PERFORMING CHARTER SCHOOLS HAVE SHOWN DRAMATIC STUDENT ACADEMIC GROWTH, GRADUATION RATES AND COLLEGE MATRICULATION, PARTICULARLY FOR LOW-INCOME AND MINORITY STUDENTS.

According to a review of the highest quality charter school studies, these schools produce positive effects in elementary and middle schools that far outpace other interventions such as class-size reduction. The RAND Corporation finds that . . . "

And High performing public schools are better than most charter schools. It is easy when you cherry pick your information.

Corporations find all kinds of interesting information in the studies they do.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. When our politicians cause the collapse of our public school system (look to Wisconsin and Michigan, for example) and all there are are charter schools, wait until you see the storm of criticism the charters will get then.

I personally would prefer a tracking system like they have in Germany. But right now that is out of favor in educational circles. China may turn out more engineers than us, but they only educate their best and brightest.

A very strong case could be made that education is better in the U.S. than it has ever been, both for charters and public schools. We have so much more research about what good education is and how to deliver it than ever before. But charters are not a panacea.

At any rate, you cannot just proclaim that everyone in a school reads "at least one grade level above" unless you kick out or never accept the average students. Reading at grade level is where most kids are. That's how statistics and averages work. Grade level expectations and standards were established so that the average kid could reach it.

When the charter schools begin accepting everyone, and when Eton and Exeter begin accepting poor blacks and Mexicans who cannot pay their bills, then I'll become a Republican.

Cut the sanctimonious crap. Do you think you're Mother Theresa? Do you think none of the rest of us have worked hard, recognized our good fortune, and contributed to the least among us (which is not in this country mind you), probably more in absolute and RELATIVE terms? If you'd read through all of my posts, you'll realize that we're essentially saying the same thing; that there are bad teachers (well maybe we disagree there) and bad parents, the offspring of which make a teacher's job a nightmare. We simply disagree on the value of a public education.

I never attacked your kids, though if my hypotheticals happened to hit the mark, then you're really attacking yourself. I was merely responding to your petty need to point out a typo, many of which you just committed in your most recent post. Tisk, tisk for a teacher.

Yes, there are kids that are born into messy situations. My wife is a prime example. But she overcame it, because she didn't listen to all the voices saying that she was owed anything in life, that she was a victim of her circumstances and had no way out, that she was worthless. Nope, she put her nose to the grindstone to build a better life for herself. She had no father. I had to retire early because of a physical limitation. I would CHERISH the opportunity to do what you do, no matter how bad you think you have it on any given day. You have the vitality and passion to do it.

And why make this a political argument? Why is it that you must feel the need to associate with the Democrats or the Republicans? I'm neither. I'm a fiscally-conservative, socially liberal independent, but I don't like seeing our tax dollars going to waste with a complete lack of accountability in government.

By the way, never mind that we pay higher property taxes, subsidizing the public schools, but we also donate a hell of a lot to our own school over and above, subsidizing the education of others and providing teachers like you with a job.

Oh, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that half the problem is that we lack a moral compass in this country anymore. The real question is, why is that?

The human condition hasn't changed all that much over the past several thousand years. Our public perception has lost a little varnish. Journalists have lost a little integrity. Lawyers have broken down barriers, allowing themselves to drum up business. A lot of wealth has been concentrated in the hands of a small, select number of individuals, giving them more power than ever before, so much so that our government is now working for these corporations.

By the way, here's some info on charter schools:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704869304575109443305343962.html