Teachers: Should you be paid based on performance?

I know the reason that people don't get into teaching--especially you critics..they fear being in a room with 35 7th graders right after a sugary lunch where they avoid the meals and just drink juice or chocoalte milk and eat candy and Bernardo says "F*ck You" to Ilir and then Henry and Muhammed get into it a brawl because they thought Bernardo was saying it to them.You then let them pound each other because if you try and break it up they call you a "sexual predator" since you touched them.

Then they get suspended and the parents/guardians (who look like the "Jersey Shore Cast meets The Wire")come up, refuse to get them evaluated for Special Education ("Not My child!!") and proceed to beat the Sh*t out of each other, screaming, "No...It's your kid and Not my Kid!!"

Good Luck!

Schools in Texas under Bush raised graduate rates by kicking more kids out and forcing them to transfer, etc. Numbers pressures do nothing other than make education worse. States constantly adjust scores for political reasons. Schools cheat on a system wide basis, as in the 157 schools in Atlanta. And meanwhile, there is no language instruction, very little arts education, no music education (dismiss them if you want, but art alone is a $60 billion industry, counting sales alone), and limited phys ed for an increasingly obese populace. Math concepts that could be taught in elementary school, concepts of algebra and calculus that my 5 yr old daughter has picked up easily, are held off for many years so that they can slowly learn addition and subtraction and, one day, multiplication and division. Students are not taught to write well but to write the long sentences with varied vocabulary (directly answering one simple question) that are rewarded by standardized test graders within two minutes. Students spend their days filling out workbooks, all in response to this ludicrous testing system. None of the best countries for primary and secondary school education do this.

MS Math Teacher wrote:

I will leave the criteria for "performance" up to you. It can be state tests results, class passing %, whatever.

Teachers: Do you feel it's unfair that you do a subjectively "better" job than other teachers and you are not paid more?

Non-Teachers: Would you like to see your kid's teachers paid more or less based on how well they subjectively "teach" your children?

A better law would be to sterilize teenagers that can't pass a battery of IQ tests and prevent the stupid...the just plain stupid, the emotionally stupid, socially stupid etc., from having children.

Really. What exactly is a teacher supposed to do to teach a kid and get them to learn...when they receive that child at almost the end of the most critical period of the child's life -- in so far as setting the major personality traits and base lines for that kids ability to learn, that kids ability to interact well with others.

The school systems are broke, but the society is broke first.

Holy Kablooey Batman wrote:

GUESS WHAT MORON, LOTS OF CLASSROOMS IN YOUR SCHOOL ARE FILLED WITH MANY OF THESE SAME PROBLEM KIDS. SOME TEACHERS MAKE MORE OF A POSITIVE DIFFERENCE THAN OTHERS. MEASURE IT. REWARD IT.

NOBODY IS SAYING THAT ONE SHOULD COMPARE STUDENT PERFORMANCE FROM DOWNTOWN DETROIT TO THAT FROM PALO ALTO. JUST COMPARE PERFORMANCE AND PROGRESS WITHIN A SCHOOL SYSTEM. IF YOU ARE TELLING ME THERE ARE NO DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TEACHERS THEN YOU ARE A LIAR OR BRAIN DEAD.

Good god you people are stupid.

No, you're stupid because you haven't thought about it enough. How will that progress be measured, chief? Who defines a "years worth of growth"?

Case(s) in point:

Student A walks into Senora Smith's spanish class, knowing nothing. On day one, he learns the word "hola." Growth is infinite. He never learns anything else, yet Senora Smith shows infinite growth.

Student B walks into Mr. Jones 8th grade english class, already knowing how to read and write. He leaves in June also knowing how to read and write. He hasn't really "grown," has he? See, now you must bring up text complexity, metrics, etc., and it gets sticky.

Student C walks into the library, the guidance office, and the dean's office, all in one day. No growth happens, as there's nothing to measure. Since all of these professionals have teacher contracts, well uh...

Student D walks into choir, not able to sing a lick. It's a required course, so he's just taking it to graduate. He starts the year not able to sing in tune, and ends the year still unable. The choir teacher sucks?

Dude, this is just the start. All of your ALL CAPS, "don't compare the smart/wealthy to the dumb/poor" arguments have the same damn flaw: great in theory, horrible in practice.

And to the earth science teacher: step off your high horse, jack. Growth in your subject vs another? Please. How can you compare teaching kids about plate tectonics for the 1st time in their lives (the infinite growth example) with adding another "years worth of growth" to a student's writing or reading abilities? Or about 100 other examples from other subjects?

apples-oranges-pears-turnips-grapes-lettuce

While you might be good, don't use the "hey I added more growth than them!" argument. Makes you look like a fool. Maybe not to people who haven't stepped inside a school in 20 years, but to fellow teachers it does.

Nobody could be that stupid could they? Seriously?

Student A - growth infinite. What, did you just master fractions and you really want to show off that you know that dividing by zero doesn't work very well? And this is supposed to be germane to the topic?

No damned way you are that stupid!

Student B already knows how to read when he comes to class and still knows how to read when he leaves therefore he hasn't grown? Seriously? This is your argument? You mean that there is no way to measure different levels of reading comprehension? Seriously?

No damned way you are that stupid!

Student C interacts with non-teachers and therefore teacher performance simply cannot be measured? HJMFC! Seriously?

No friggin' chance you are that stupid!

Student D can't hold a tune therefore there is no way to measure teacher performance? There is nothing more to learning about music than the quality of one's voice? Seriously?

Aint no way, aint no how you could be that stupid!

Sorry dude but you shouldn't make it so obvious that you are just trying to make status quo teachers look bad. This is true for both ethical and practical reasons. On the practical side, you aren't fooling anyone with arguments that would be easily refuted by a retarded earthworm. On the ethical side, it just is not right to even try to make teachers look bad. Most teachers (like most professionals) are good at their job and are trying to make a positive difference. It just isn't right to try to make them look like morons.

You still don't know what you're talking about. I'm a national board certified teacher with 17 years experience. I do.

The spanish example is valid. In subjects where students show "infinite" growth - electives, FL, content-heavy subjects with introductory material to learn - effective growth measure tests are impossible to create to measure teacher competence.

Of course there are different measures of reading comprehension. But if you know anything (this is what I teach, by the way), true growth is only shown in applying the same skills learned in elementrary (identifying main idea, inferencing, determining author's purpose, etc., etc.,) to texts with increased complexity. I had a student this year who could've aced our standardized state test at the beginning of the year. The test simply doesn't offer complex enough texts (Lexile 1400 or above) for him to show any quantifiable growth. Does this mean I sucked as a teacher? Of course not. He read material that made sense for him; other students read easier stuff at their level. The skills we worked on stayed the same.

The dean, counselor, and librarian (ahem, media specialist) example is also real. Throw PE teacher in there as well. ALL have teacher contracts, so the push for accountability for these positions is there - under the "years worth of growth" model, as you argue. Our PE teacher is reporting BMI this year for every student, with the expectation that he'll lower them by the end of the year. Insane, ridiculous demands. I can only assume that 100% book return expectations are coming for the librarian.

Regarding choir, it's a singing class, bro. Not intro to music, music theory, etc. It's a specialized class, just like stage design (theater), pottery (art), or yoga (PE class). Please tell me how to define "a years worth of growth" in these areas.

See, dolt, I know what the hell I'm talking about. I'm here to defend teachers, not attack them as you say. The growth model of teacher evaluations is a friggin' farce, a political tool of the right to dismantle public education.

Care to respond now?

Holy Kablooey Batman wrote:

Pro tip: calling people stupid to start off your post is a terrible way to argue. Nobody's going to listen to you when you can't make your point without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

I just completed my third year of teaching.

Year 1: 8th grade - 55% of students passed the State Assessment

Year 2: 7th grade - 55% of my students passed the State Assessment with a score of "Commended" (answering 90% of questions correctly). Only 2 out of ~120 students failed the test.

One student missed it by two questions, and the other student was SPED but parents refused to sign him up for support services or recognize that he may be SPED. (Student would've passed the SPED Modified Assessment, I believe). I had the highest passing % in the school. I was laid off after this year due to a reduction in force (District over-budgeted) and since I was the last hired, I was the first out.

Year 3: 8th grade - Only FOUR out of my ~120 students, pass the test.

Each year I taught at a different school, Year 2 & 3 were in the same district, but obviously, completely different sides of town.

2 out of 3 years, I must be a suck ass teacher, right?

For the foreign language student, what would be the problem with having a test at the end of the year that includes everything a first-year student should know? That eliminates the problem you raise.

But students from different socio-economic backgrounds perform at different levels? OK, so compare urban schools to other urban schools. Compare the suburbs to the suburbs. The student's "score" will eventually look something like:

Student A

In the 75th percentile for 1st year Spanish for in class L (however that is defined)

In the 70th percentile for 1st year Spanish statewide

In the 65th percentile for 1st year Spanish nationwide

I'm not sure how you would define the classes - based on setting, dollars, or whatever

But the point is you're comparing an urban kid to all other urban kids to determine whether your student is ahead or behind his peers. Taken across the whole class to account for individual fluctuations, you should get a measure of teacher proficiency when compared to other teachers dealing with the same populations.

Or maybe this already happening? It seems to obvious to not be happening, right?

As for reducing the gap between urban and suburban, I don't think teacher compensation should be tied to that. That seems to a larger issue to be taken up by administrators, school boards, and politicians.

Gonna have to call BS wrote:

Will people ever stop with this BS about "Oh, there is no perfect way to measure performance"?

Guess what folks? There is no perfect way to measure performance in ANY job but there are reasonable ways and paying for performance is fundamental to getting improved performance. Yes, it IS that simple.

Otherwise, let's pay every administrative assistant the same as every other, every lawyer the same as every other, every engineer the same as every other, every executive the same as every other...because, after all there is no way to perfectly measure performance.

I worked in the private sector. My performance was based on very objective criteria. If my store made $xxx, I got a rating of x for sales. If we got $xx in profit, same thing. Wage percent was also a criterium. We knew going in exactly what we were expected to acheive and the measurables were true measurables and obtainable.

As a teacher, the measurables cannot truly be measured, nor are they attainable. Most are very subjective.

Teachers all want to be treated with the same respect (and pay) as other professions but they balk at every instance when it comes to being treated as such.

They tell you that there is no way they can be accurately assessed, and without 100% job security they cant do their job well. No other profession has this type of protection. You can't have it both ways.

And.. if there's no way to accurately measure whether a teacher is good or not, then why is it we all seem to know bad teaching when we see it?

Your private sector work experience appears to be extremely limited as does your perspective.

I worked as a consultant. There was no way to objectively measure performance. How do you quantify one person's contribution to a team of 9 in implementing a solution for the client that is a combination of software development, delivery and training with organizational changes and business process improvements that had to include getting the buy-in of key executives as well as the folks "who did the work" (as they like to say)?

But guess what? Every consultant's performance was evaluated. The cream rose to the top with corresponding pay raises while those who were not cutting it were let go. And I guarantee you that those same consultants could easily put up ten arguments for why their work was simply not measurable for every one that the teachers put up. And they would have been just as mistaken.

sure go ahead wrote:

Otherwise, I suggest you apply the same logic to doctors. Dock their pay every time a patient develops diabetes or heart disease due to overeating and lack of exercise. Do the same for every patient who develops lung cancer because of smoking. I mean hell, it's the doctors job to convince his/her patients to lead better lifestyles, right?

This is why teacher evaluations do not work. A doctor whose patients do not follow his advice make him more money. A teacher whose students do not follow the teacher's advice can cost the teacher his job.

WasOnceUhRunner wrote:

And.. if there's no way to accurately measure whether a teacher is good or not, then why is it we all seem to know bad teaching when we see it?

Good and bad teaching is mostly measured on the connection and dynamic that a teacher has with the students: ability to engage students, motivate them to produce work, and turn them into active listeners and learners.

Good teaching is rarely can be assessed through test scores. There are so many factors that produce "good" scores, it's hard to know which ones the teacher had an impact on. However, it's very easy to observe that if a student is more "motivated" under a particular teacher, but that is difficult to measure "motivation" (student survey?).

Teacher evaluations are best through observation. However, schools do observations once or twice a year. It's a sham. I've only ever known two people who are qualified to "evaluate" me, my teacher aides. They were in my classroom every day and saw me teach every day. They knew the type of students and the type of environment in my classroom, as well as other classrooms.

I don't think most teachers think it's IMPOSSIBLE to evaluate how they perform, just difficult. A lot of the commonly used methods are virtually worthless: student evaluations are a joke, teacher observations don't work, standardized testing wastes valuable class time, is expensive, and also doesn't work. Any performance evaluation would need to be intelligently implemented, and I think we all know that that won't happen if it's forced in by politicians who don't have a clue. What we get instead is an impossible waste of time like the No Child Left Behind Act.

dotato wrote:

disagree completely wrote:

What are the reasonable standards?

it is simple.

1. don't be a dick to parents,

2. participate in PLC,

3. one year of instruction equals one year of growth, as determined by MAP Assessments for k-9 and state level achievement assessment for 10-12. 10-12 Secondary gets a bit tougher, which why I support cohort teaching/learning over differentiated instruction at the this level,

4. provide effective mentoring, measured by using district provided time to assist non-tenured teacher skill development.

5. proof of content mastery and continuing learning.

see?

How do you measure growth for PE classes? Band? Art? Foreign languages? Home Economics?

But next year's third graders are (hopefully) not the same group of kids as last year's. Anybody who has been in a classroom knows that there are times when a district is blessed with a good group one year, only to be cursed with the worst performers a year later.

This whole debate is pretty silly.

I honestly do not think that any person of even moderate intelligence could think that:

1) Every teacher is the same - there are no good teachers or bad teachers.

or

2) While there may be good and bad teachers it is simply impossible to figure out which is which.

It strikes me as equally obvious that no person of even moderate intelligence could think that one size fits all - that it is even possible to come up with a three paragraph description of a performance evaluation and compensation plan that would perfectly fit every teacher scenario across the country.

I would also posit that it is human nature to dislike the notion of being evaluated by others and if there is a way to avoid this people will. I say this as someone who has worked with dozens of companies across many different industries to help them come up with performance evaluation and compensation plans for all levels of company personnel. I can tell you that the very first thing that comes out of people's mouths when you sit down for that first meeting is some variation of "Oh, we are so special. Our industry/job is different. There is no way to evaluate our performance." Every. Single. Time.