Future Star: 1600 in 4:05 at High School Dual Meet

fast time, but no RAIL = NO RECORD

stick with eharmony wrote:

fast time, but no RAIL = NO RECORD

Really? White River H.S. has a rule about a rail?

To recap:

1. White River isn't really a tiny school. It's not big by any means, but it's about average sized: 1012 for their 3 year count, which means a 4-year enrollment of about 1365.

2. Dickson has done well in big invitationals this year, so I'm not sure what your point about rather seeing him do something at invitationals is relevant. He won the Brooks Indoor mile, he was second to Nye at the Arcadia mile, and he won the Shoreline 800m just two days after this 4:05. I'd say that's all the big invites he really needs to run before state... but don't worry, he'll be at the Dream Mile after the rest of his season is done.

3. While only being a mid-sized school, it's not like he doesn't face competition on a regular basis. It's Washington, there are plenty of talented runners in the area (Tacoma) he lives.

4. There is nothing wrong with a 9:38 kid running a 2:02 as a workout in a dual meet, whether it's during the mile or the 800. It's a workout, it will help him and he was also able to be a part of the record setting attempt.

Yes, it's too bad some kid on the sidelines decided to try and run with him, but luckily this wasn't a big meet and the opposing coaches didn't have a big enough problem with it to DQ Dickson. But what Dickson and Gould did was great for the sport.

Kanye North wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

Neither of my kids will pace any other kid without their coaches getting a piece of my mind about it. I would NOT want any other kid pacing either of my kids to a fast time either. NO high school kid is that special that they should have a pacer in a race. Gives a bad message to both pacer and pacee.

Stop living vicariously through your kids' success and let them make their own decisions.

If your kid chooses to pace another teammate to help him out in one race of one crappy dual meet -- sacrificing no real part of his season -- you have no business telling your kid or his coach they can't do that.

That's not your call.

Didn't you get the memo? As it turns out, Flagpole's opinion IS more important than everybody else's...

YES PLACEBA HE STEPPED ON THE LINE. ARE YOU NOT AWARES THAT IF YOU STEPS ON THE LINES YOU ARES DISQUALIFIEDS?

Placeba wrote:

stick with eharmony wrote:

fast time, but no RAIL = NO RECORD

Really? White River H.S. has a rule about a rail?

Every person that cares about high school track and field has now replied to this thread. Anything that generates an ounce of excitement should be embraced, not ridiiculed. That pacer kid and Marcus will be talking about that race for decades assuming they're friends, good for them. His development and opportunity is about number 5000 on the priority list.

ifififi wrote:

(aside: how does a tiny school like Buckley have two kids who've run 4:06 and 4:05?)

Dickson is amazingly talented and running in a larger school/region now, and IMHO, a better time to be a HS runner with all the info available online. Andy Maris was a beast and a phenom from the farm country, coached by his older brother.

In HS he was 2nd at Footlocker Nats in '89 to Bryan Damesworth and then upset him in the Arcadia 2 mile. He had qualified for World Junior XC, but passed to prep for his senior track campaign. He then took a full-ride to UofO.

Ran at Oregon for a year (3rd frosh at NCAAs), then wanted to transfer to UP and wasn't released by UofO. Sat out a year, ran for UP, then finished his collegiate career Portland State (then DII) and ran 3rd at DII Nats and qualified for outdoors in the 5000m.

A young Brad Hudson had some high praise for Andy before he decided to leave Oregon:

It's that kind of approach to running that convinces Brad Hudson, an Oregon assistant last year, that greatness lies in Maris' future.

"I think his potential is unlimited," said Hudson, who'll be representing the U.S. in the marathon at the upcoming World Championships in Tokyo. "I don't think there's a limit on him. He pushes it in his training and he's got the right attitude. He's tough." -

Really there are 5000 people who can run a faster mile than he can?

Lighten up Francis wrote:

Every person that cares about high school track and field has now replied to this thread. Anything that generates an ounce of excitement should be embraced, not ridiiculed. That pacer kid and Marcus will be talking about that race for decades assuming they're friends, good for them. His development and opportunity is about number 5000 on the priority list.

Okay, buddy. Why don't you try counting the strides the kid in blue takes alongside of the runner. It's at least 40 meters. It was more than 7 seconds of running by his side. That goes beyond spontaneous.

I could lie and say I'm an official as well. I'm not. I'm a coach and have been for a long time. I wouldn't have protested, but I've seen kids get disqualified for a lot fewer pacing strides by an infield spectator.

And what about the coach trying to run with him and going back and forth calling out splits. Isn't that a bit questionable as well?

And it would be incredibly inappropriate to ever look for a belly ring on anyone. Officials should only call violations they see. Unfortunately, there is such a double standard in the world of track and field and a complete inconsistency in the interpretations and enforcement of the officials.

Actually, I counted 11 seconds. And that doesn't include the fact that the kid starts running before the runner gets on the homestretch.

One kid chasing a record while there are 17 other events at the meet does not create excitement for T&F. Going to a meet that the teams are just going through the motions or running a "practice" also does no good. Back in the day meets actually counted and athlete put forth the effort because if you didn't you might have been replaced for next invite.

dontflushwhileyousit wrote:

Actually, I counted 11 seconds. And that doesn't include the fact that the kid starts running before the runner gets on the homestretch.

There are people running all over the infield. Pacing only occurs when someone is running alongside or immediately in front of another runner.Marcus wouldn't have sensed the presence of the guy in blue until about the 4 minute mark of the video. He has passed him by 4:04. Anything construed as "pacing" by its wildest interpretation by jerks such as yourself (and yes, many officials are jerks like you) might have happened for 5 seconds on this video. 3:59-4:04. Both the coach and the one, single athlete on the homestretch were not being that smart, however, neither would be grounds for disqualification. Point being, none of the officials at this meet, nor opposing coaches, were dickheads who hate kids so there was,correctly, no DQ. I will agree that since people like you and Flagpole make up the rules to fit your beliefs, or at least interpret them that way, both the coach and the athlete should be admonished that it is always better to be safe than try to defend yourself on an appeal against aforementioned dickheads.

None of what you said changes my opinion. A kid on a track team should not be "over the moon" about pacing someone else. I can agree that dual meets are not important or 'utilitarian' as you say, but they should be for each kid to work on their own thing, not help some other kid.

helicopter parent wrote:

It doesn't surprise me that Flagpole is the type of parent to raise his kid with the 'everything revolves around my kid' attitude. No wonder he would be upset if his kid were to pace another runner.

Ha! I also said I wouldn't want someone else's kid pacing my kid. Lame is lame, no matter who benefits from it. I want to see self respect whether it is my kid or someone else's kid.

No sense in me continuing on this thread. I've made my point clear. I can see that I'm in the great minority here, and quite honestly I'm very surprised. Maybe most of you never won anything and can imagine playing second fiddle to some other runner. Maybe you are enamored because this kid ran 4:05. What if his school record was 4:38 and some kid paced him to a 4:37? Would that be good?

Seems too much pedestal placing to do something like that, and if you place others on a pedestal, often you can't see yourself ever being up there. Hero worship on a high school level is not good.

Kids should run their own races and strive to set their own PRs. Many of you have mentioned "team" and teamwork, and quite frankly what happened in that race was anything but teamwork...it was VERY individual-focused. Lame. No blame goes to the kid even if he asked for it. He's a high school kid. The coaches that set it up though should not have done it. I wish more of you were right this time. I am shocked that you're not.

I hate to break it to you, but unless your kid is leading every race he's in wire-to-wire or so far separated from a pack that he has no chance of competing, then he's going to be paced regardless of your foolish mindset.

Do you discount every performance where someone has tucked in the tail end of a pack to run a good time in the same manner? Do front-runners have no self-respect considering they've assumed the role of pacer (intended or not)? Do tactical racers have no self-respect because they do the smart thing and go for the win as easily as possible?

How about this: don't let your kids run races. Just have them solo time-trial everything they do so they can be sure to meet your seal of approval.

In 10+ years of coaching, I have never once filed a protest or approached an official about disqualifying a kid for a trivial reason (the only disqualifications I've been involved in have been relay zone infractions). You are the most arrogant prick I've ever encountered on this message board. You make all of these assumptions about me and about officials who enforce rules. When it's not convenient for you to follow the rules (i.e., your hero runs a 4:05 1600 at a dual meet while clearly being paced on the homestretch), you call people names and accuse them of hating kids. I love track and field, and I love coaching kids and watching meets and all of that. The big problem I have with this video is that it, in my opinion, shows a clear violation of the rules, and this tells other kids that this sort of behavior is okay. It's at least worth acknowledging that the behavior of the spectator and the coach are questionable. I don't believe that discussing this issue takes away from the fact that the kid ran 4:05. His time says it all. There might be 10 high schoolers in the nation who could run a 4:05 period, paced or not. It's a great accomplishment. But let's keep in mind the integrity of the rules while we're at it.

Saul Goodman wrote:

I hate to break it to you, but unless your kid is leading every race he's in wire-to-wire or so far separated from a pack that he has no chance of competing, then he's going to be paced regardless of your foolish mindset.

Do you discount every performance where someone has tucked in the tail end of a pack to run a good time in the same manner? Do front-runners have no self-respect considering they've assumed the role of pacer (intended or not)? Do tactical racers have no self-respect because they do the smart thing and go for the win as easily as possible?

How about this: don't let your kids run races. Just have them solo time-trial everything they do so they can be sure to meet your seal of approval.

This isn't what Flagpole is talking about at all. He's talking about a kid being forced to give up his own race for the sole sake of pacing someone else to a fast time. What you are talking about is competition.

Flagpole wrote:

Kids should run their own races and strive to set their own PRs. Many of you have mentioned "team" and teamwork, and quite frankly what happened in that race was anything but teamwork...it was VERY individual-focused. Lame. No blame goes to the kid even if he asked for it. He's a high school kid. The coaches that set it up though should not have done it. I wish more of you were right this time. I am shocked that you're not.

How many people race for the purposes of setting a PR in every single race of every single meet? You have no idea what else this kid ran that day.

You really don't have much of a point on this. You're just wrong.