ukathleticscoach wrote:Radliffe won the world junior xc those lot came from nowhere and back again and half that Ma's athletes were busted in later years
Did you even watch that race? Um, Wang finished second. Newsflash: Qu finished third in the 1992 Olympic 1,500 and Liu won the World Junior title also at 1,500in 1992. All this before they "snuck up" on everyone in 1993. Do you even follow athletics?
here's the deal yo wrote:
Ma's athletes didn't fail any tests. They just had "abnormal levels". This was before the 2000 Games. Before Beijing had even been awared the '08 Games. The powers that be in China, many of whom hated Coach Ma, decided to pull all but one of his athletes just in case they destroyed everyone like they did in '93 and '97. They didn't want any negative pub (well, any more than they already had) in the buildup to the awarding of the '08 Games. That is what I've heard from several people, anyway.
Interesting, what is your reference on this info? Which tests were they "abnormally high" on? My guess would be EPO since I have heard that ephedrine is a naturally occuring herb in China...Chinese officials have even warned their athletes about using herbal ephedrine as it contains banned substances
Its a highly likely possibility that a lot of Ma's secret tonics that he was giving his athletes contained herbal ancient chinese substances known to promote recovery in muscles, allowing them to benefit from absurd amounts of training levels. More than likely these ancient chinese remedies contained banned substances. What Ma needs to do is finally write a "memoir" before he dies to document his secret training programs and list of "secret" tonics, so that the rest of the world can analyze them and his potentially revolutionary training programs
After all, the Chinese are known for their revolutionary eastern medicines which defy western science, it is possible that there are things they understand about recovery that western science has not yet uncovered...either way, I believe Wang and Qu had an advantage in science available to them that the rest of us dont
tjmiler wrote:
Obviously its not as conclusive as Marita Koch's name being found on a list of athletes who were systematically doped in East Germany
Koch's name was "found" by Frank Shorter, if you get the drift.
I respect your interest in this topic. Indeed, the Army obviously did something unlike any others before or since them. Coach Ma spent the better part of two decades (from the early '70s to the early '90s) perfecting his all-natural recipes. I say recipes, because there wasn't just one "secret tonic." Chinese herbs work synergistically. Monday take this formula. Tuesday this formula, etc. Highly unlikely it will ever be reproduced exactly as he had it, when he would have it. A bit pressed for time, but will check back on this thread later.
There were some detailed postings by a Mexican runner about Ma's training on here a few years ago, from when the Chinese coaches were assisting at the Mexican training camps.
i'm suprised at the tolerance on this message forum for these chinese athletes' perfidy. they came and went, like thieves in the night.
to elevate them into the hall of fame in perpetuity does a great disservice to those who have striven, year after year, in the light of open competition, for all the world to see.
Shame.
djäveln wrote:
to elevate them into the hall of fame in perpetuity does a great disservice to those who have striven, year after year, in the light of open competition, for all the world to see.
Shame.
The shame is of you not being supportive of your fellow human beings.
djäveln wrote:
i'm suprised at the tolerance on this message forum for these chinese athletes' perfidy. they came and went, like thieves in the night.
to elevate them into the hall of fame in perpetuity does a great disservice to those who have striven, year after year, in the light of open competition, for all the world to see.
Shame.
I am semi-tolerant, and also particularly would blame Ma for the doping if it occurred...From interviews Qu and Wang look like genuinely honest human beings, while Ma sounds like a monster
Particularly, I am not particularly suprised that Qu dropped her time from 3:57 to 3:50 in a single year...After all she was a junior runner and as I indicated meteoric rises of kids in the 18-20 age range are not unheard of, even without doping (consider Jim Ryun and Daniel Komen) who basically demolished the records then were past their prime by the time they reached age 20, probably because of burnout and over-training
I agree with Wang's addition to the hall of fame purely from the 1993 performances as being LEGENDARY...To be honest, I believe the 3000 - 10000 records were particularly weak before 1993 anyway...After all I don't think Tatayana Kazankina was a 3k specialist, Ingrid Kristensen didn't have any speed, and the 5000 record was especially weak (that has since been dropped over 20 seconds by Defar and Dibaba)
tjmiler wrote: ... Noah Ngeny only have had 1-2 spectacular seasons at young age and then dropped from the WR ability)Yeah well that car accident he was in had something to do with that. He had only 4 full seasons before it in 2001.
The Chinese performances continue to be completely unprecedented. It's not any single performance, but the series of performances over the whole week that truly marks that week out.Here's a report from a guy who was ther at the time.
Beijing Workers' September 8-13 - The shocking showing of the Chinese distance women in Stuttgart was only a prelude to their efforts at the Chinese National Games. By the time the last beam had been broken, six had gone under previous WRs a total of 14 times and experts then world over - those inside the stadium and out; chinese and non-chinese coaches rival to the mercurial Ma Junren; and of course the entire world's press - were shaking their heads in stunned disbelief (see p.4).
The meet began hot and stayed that way. On day one, Wang Junxia, the Stuttgart 1OK champ, followed veteran Zhong Huandi for more than 17 laps of the 10,000. Zhong had passed halfway in 15:05.69, and five laps later they were still on even pace to challenge lngrid Kristiansen’s WR 30:13.74 from ‘86. Wang, running well within herself, finally unleashed her kick with 3000 remaining. She tore through the next kilo in 2:45.6, and followed with a 2:44.9. She needed to run her last kilo in only 3:28.9 to break the mark, but hammered a 2:46.9 to finish in an historic 29:31.78, continuing to run, with arms raised, after the finish. Zhong, a half lap behind, came home in 30:13.37, also under the record. The third placed finisher, Stuttgart 3000 silver medallist Zhang Linli, finished outside 31 minutes.
Wang’s performance put the world on notice that more records would follow. She had run her last 5000 in 14:26.0, well under Kristiansen’s WR 14:37.33. Truly unbelievable was Wang’s last 3000, clocked by Omega in 8:17.47, more than five seconds faster than Tatyana Kazankina’s WR from ‘84. Wang and her compatriots had more races to run. Hoever Two days later, in the heats of the 1500, she ran 4:01.55 Stuttgart 3000 champ Qu Yunxia led the qualifiers at 359.38; the 12th and slowest qualifier ran 4:02.44 The next day, teammate Liu Dong acted as rabbit in a planned assault on Kazankina’s WR 3:52.47 - a mark that had stood for 13 years.
Liu, the World 1500 champ, embarked on an ambitious pace that favored her more talented training partners. She hit 400 in 57.1, 800 in 2:00.7, and stepped off the track. Qu took the initiative, with Wang following. They covered the next lap in 64.5. Qu who had earlier run a 1:56.24 for 2nd in the 800 to Liu’s 1:55.54, took advantage of her superior speed to get a meter ahead of Wang. With 200 left, Wang made a last-gasp effort to take the lead, but Qu prevailed. She emerged triumphant with a 350.46 WR. Wang also bettered the record with her 351.92.
Zhang Linli, 2nd in the Stuttgart 3000, finished well back at 357.46. Altogether, 7 women broke 4:00, including 17-year-old Wang Yuan, whose 3:59.81 bettered the WJR she had set in the heats. Three days earlier she had toppled Maria Mutola’s WJR with her 157.18 in the 800 heats. A day later, the heats of the 3000 shocked even more. In the first, Zhang Linli and Zhang Lirong both cruised under Kazankina’s WR of 822.62, running 822.06 and 822.44 respectively. It was a WR fated to last only some 14 minutes.
In the second heat, Qu teamed up with Wang Junxia and lesser-known teammate Ma Liin. Training partner Wang Yanfang set the pace for a quick 529.43 at 2000 before she faded. As Qu and Wang Junxia gradually sped up, Ma lost contact but did not fade. Wang edged ahead at the finish, her 8:12.19 shattering Zhang’s mark by 9.87. Qu finished just 0.08 back (8:12.27). Ma also ducked under the mark with her 8:19.78.
A day later, Wang and Qu faced each other again to settle the score. This time, no rabbits led the way. Wang moved to the fore and hit 1000 in 2:42.0. She lagged on her next kilo, running 2:47.7 for a 529.65, slower than the heat. In her sixth race in as many days, Qu finally found her speed blunted. She could not pull even with Wang, who had unleashed her trademark kick.
On the last lap, the margin grew steadily, and before long it was not a question of who would win; it was how much damage they would do to the record. Wang covered the last kilo in 2:36.4 and crossed the line in a stunning 8:06.11. Qu also broke the mark - by the barest of margins - finishing in 8:12.18. Three others trounced the ghost of Kazankina: Zhang Linli (8:16.50), Ma (8:21.26) and Zhang Lirong (8:21.84). Even the last placed finisher made headlines as 14 year old Yang Ling ran a stunning 8:42.3 for 8th to conclude this most dramatic of weeks in global athletics.
Qu's week:
sept 8th: 1:57.21 2h2
sept 9th: 1:56.24 2
sept 10th: 3:59.38 1h1
sept 11th: 3:50.46 WR
sept 12th: 8:12.27 2h2
sept 13th: 8:12.18 2
Wang's week
sept 8th: 29:31.78 WR (14:26.09 second 5k; 8:17 final 3k)
sept 10th: 4:01.55 2h2
sept 11th: 3:51.92 2
sept 12th: 8:12.19 WR 1h2
sept 13th: 8:06.11 WR (2:36 final km; 3:59 second 1500)
Zhang Linli's week:
8th: 31:16.28 5
10th: 4:01.66 3h2
11th: 3:57.46 3
12th: 8:22.06 WR 1h1
13th: 8:16.50 3
How is this possible?!
As I mentioned before, equally incredible was the Chinese girl's performances at the 1994 swimming world championships,
12 out of the 16 gold medals available, setting 8 world and championship records.
In the previous world championships in 1991, 2 Chinese women swimmers won gold medals.
So why can’t they do the same for the men?
The fact is, that no matter how much drugs you pump into a Chinese male - you are never in a million years going to produce a LeBron James, Usain Bolt or Hicham el Guerrouj.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
doping - Radcliffe, El-G, Johnson 1.0, Griffith-Joyner, Dreschler, Johnson 2.0, McKoy, Issajenko, etc., etc., etc., likely people like Bubka, Sotomayor, etc.
Bubka is actually a very interesting "outlier". He took part in six world championships from 1983-1997, and won gold every single time. His world record was 6.15 (indoors), but because he improved the world record 35 times, by 1 cm each, it is very likely that he could have cleared 6.20, maybe 6.25, if he had attempted these heights at the prime of his career. There are 16 other pole vaulters in history who have cleared between 6.00 and 6.05m.
Pole vaulting requires strength, obviously, and there have been doping cases. However, if there was ever a "freak" outlier in professional sports, it would be him.
Oh, and of course, extreme outliers aren't more likely to dope than people who are just "at the top" of a sport that's full of dopers. For something like Bubka's performance, clearly, it takes more than just doping (otherwise, other competitors would come close). Maybe you have to dope, but you clearly also have to be a freak - and if you accept that someone is a complete outlier, perhaps he is good enough even without doping.
I suspect that among that the likelihood of doping among the current 27:20-26:50 runners is at least as great as for the sub 26:30 runners.
But Paula world record is in 2003 when I was 11 years old. The record is so old that its 9 years that I'm 20 yrs old.
Paula record shouldn't count because it's too old. 9 years later 2012 I turn 20 yrs old. And Paula can't even run under 2:20:00 since 2005. At least run under 2:20:00. YOu don't have to run a world record.
Doesn't Paula 1:12:03 slowest half marathon timing tell you people that 2:15:25 is fake!
Walt George wrote:The fact is, that no matter how much drugs you pump into a Chinese male - you are never in a million years going to produce a LeBron James, Usain Bolt or Hicham el Guerrouj.
Or a Liu Xiang?
Swanee River wrote:
I question this idea that being a statistical outlier means someone is doping, just because there are in fact freaks of nature in almost everything else.
For example, if you tried to use statistic to show how tall a person could be, would you ever predict that someone could be 8' 11" tall? That's crazy tall and a complete outlier but someone that tall really existed. Or if you look at vocal range, having a several octave range is very unusual, but the record range is 8 octaves.
The physical characteristics that make someone a great runner aren't as easy to measure but who is to say there aren't freakish outliers and Radcliffe is one.
That 8' 11" guy was normal until he developed a tumor on his pituitary, resulting in excessive production of GH. Not a genetic outlier so much as a developmental outlier. Theoretically, could something analogous benefit a runner?
Walt George wrote:
So why can’t they do the same for the men?
Because women stand to benefit more from exogenous androgens/hGH than do men because of lower natural levels of these.
Anyone who thinks the Chinese who set those '93 records were clean or that the records were in any way legit is not only too stupid to call himself a track fan, but is an oxygen thief in general. Such people must never, ever be allowed to breed, at least until we all give up on humankind to such an extent that we can throw out hands in the air, laugh and say "let's just make a sick game of it."
+1 Absolutely.
djäveln wrote:
i'm suprised at the tolerance on this message forum for these chinese athletes' perfidy. they came and went, like thieves in the night.
to elevate them into the hall of fame in perpetuity does a great disservice to those who have striven, year after year, in the light of open competition, for all the world to see.
Shame.
Boys, Junxia won the olympics in 1996. She did it on a sprinters track in America with everyone watching.