don't know wrote:
Essentially is killing not the pinnacle of bullying?
No, I don't think so. I would equate bullying as a lighter form of torture, which I think is worse than killing.
Bullying is not a precursor to killing, though. Torture typically is.
Again, people are misunderstanding the question of the OP, probably because it was poorly worded. The OP is not defending the shootings, but merely asking if any of us can empathize with the shooters in his hypothetical situation.
A Big Bully wrote:
If a kid who is bullied mercilessly throughout his time at High School decides to bring a gun to school to shoot his persecutors, is he justified?
I have no idea if this is what happened in Ohio today, but the news got me thinking about the shooters and the victims of a hypothetical situation where a kid is tortured daily by bullies, only to snap and take revenge. If that were to happen, are the victims really victims? Bullying can have very real, long-term consequences on people's lives. If these revenge shootings were to become a more regular thing, would it put an end to bullying?
Is this too sensitive of an issue to discuss?
+++++++++++
This is called blaming the victim, not unlike the archaic judges who have let rapists off the hook based on the victim's relationship history ("loose") or clothing ("provocative") ergo the person "asked for it". I am surprised anyone would suggest that those dead teens in any way shape or fashion got what they deserved. I say this having been both bullied and bullying others as a teenager.
xlev2 wrote:
I say this having been both bullied and bullying others as a teenager.
You were never bullied.
Legalease wrote:
xlev2 wrote:I say this having been both bullied and bullying others as a teenager.
You were never bullied.
How the hell would you know?
xlev2 wrote:
How the hell would you know?
I don't. I am just guessing based on your post.
Also, though, one can empathize with the shooters without thinking the bullies "had it coming."
I think we can all agree that shooting is 100% wrong. Besides the one troll on the first page, pretty much everyone else has stated that they think shooting bullies is wrong.
xlev2 wrote:
This is called blaming the victim, not unlike the archaic judges who have let rapists off the hook based on the victim's relationship history ("loose") or clothing ("provocative") ergo the person "asked for it". I am surprised anyone would suggest that those dead teens in any way shape or fashion got what they deserved. I say this having been both bullied and bullying others as a teenager.
Hold the phone.
What about someone who gets shot while breaking into a home with the intent of hurting the owner?
What about someone who gets involved with Mexican drug gangs?
Sometimes participating in risky behavior can result in someone getting hurt or killed.
Legalease wrote:
xlev2 wrote:How the hell would you know?
I don't. I am just guessing based on your post.
Also, though, one can empathize with the shooters without thinking the bullies "had it coming."
I think we can all agree that shooting is 100% wrong. Besides the one troll on the first page, pretty much everyone else has stated that they think shooting bullies is wrong.
Nothing justifies this shooting. It doesn't change the fact that this shooting may provide an opportunity to look at bullying and the profound affect it can have on a person.
asdfe wrote:
Legalease wrote:I don't. I am just guessing based on your post.
Also, though, one can empathize with the shooters without thinking the bullies "had it coming."
I think we can all agree that shooting is 100% wrong. Besides the one troll on the first page, pretty much everyone else has stated that they think shooting bullies is wrong.
Nothing justifies this shooting. It doesn't change the fact that this shooting may provide an opportunity to look at bullying and the profound affect it can have on a person.
The question here is, were there any agencies or counsellors, etc. who could ahve seen re Klebold & Harris what was about to happen? Probably not and neither of those two most likely were aware such sources existed....
What I think this comes down to is the importance of our front-line infantry in the educational system: our teachers.
Good teachers know about these things and intervene. Teachers are extremely important to our children. This is why it is so important that we have good ones.
I am a proponent of increasing the value of our teachers. I think we need to kill the unions and drastically increase the pay of our good teachers while firing the bad ones.
I teach and coach at Chardon High School where the shootings occurred. I have taught two of the students killed and a 3rd that is currently in the hospital who was shot twice, once in the back. I did not know the alleged shooter.
In the classroom, it is hard to create the bonds necessary to understand what is going on in students' lives and provide any significance guidance beyond the academic realm. With end-of-course assessments coming from the state in the near future, there is less time than ever to get off topic in the classroom. Don't get me wrong. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that it's harder than ever to just spend time getting to know the students in your classroom. The time I spend after school in study sessions or during planning periods working with students is smaller groups allows for a much deeper relationship with each student. Even moreso, my role as a coach in cross-country, indoor track, and outdoor track provides the forum to really understand each kid and to provide encouragement and hope.
Extra-curricular activities are where we can create a sense of security and a sense of belonging. It doesn't have to be sports. Unfortunately, the kids who most need to be involved in these activities are the ones most likely to be excluded by academic eligibility hurdles and lately, the rapidly climbing participation fees ($225/season). Furthermore, the move to on-line courses and post-secondary options where the kids are no longer even in the building only create more isolation among peers.
I care deeply about my students. Since this event yesterday morning, I find myself in tears frequently just thinking about what the survivors have experienced and must now deal with. I feel inadequate to help them with this, but know I can help create an environment where this is less likely when I have access to students beyond the classroom.
I replied to this message in response to the teacher pay comment. When teacher pay goes below a certain threshold, teachers begin to look for additional sources of income so that they can do things like send their children to college, also. Secondary jobs mean fewer teachers are available for those roles with students outside the classroom.
I, too, believe teachers can profoundly impact our children. That's why I left a successful career in Engineering to pursue a career in teaching. To maximize that impact we need to support those policies and practices that increase the opportunities for student/teacher interactions beyond the classroom.
Another Option wrote:
I teach and coach at Chardon High School where the shootings occurred. I have taught two of the students killed and a 3rd that is currently in the hospital who was shot twice, once in the back. I did not know the alleged shooter.
In the classroom, it is hard to create the bonds necessary to understand what is going on in students' lives and provide any significance guidance beyond the academic realm. With end-of-course assessments coming from the state in the near future, there is less time than ever to get off topic in the classroom. Don't get me wrong. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean that it's harder than ever to just spend time getting to know the students in your classroom. The time I spend after school in study sessions or during planning periods working with students is smaller groups allows for a much deeper relationship with each student. Even moreso, my role as a coach in cross-country, indoor track, and outdoor track provides the forum to really understand each kid and to provide encouragement and hope.
Extra-curricular activities are where we can create a sense of security and a sense of belonging. It doesn't have to be sports. Unfortunately, the kids who most need to be involved in these activities are the ones most likely to be excluded by academic eligibility hurdles and lately, the rapidly climbing participation fees ($225/season). Furthermore, the move to on-line courses and post-secondary options where the kids are no longer even in the building only create more isolation among peers.
I care deeply about my students. Since this event yesterday morning, I find myself in tears frequently just thinking about what the survivors have experienced and must now deal with. I feel inadequate to help them with this, but know I can help create an environment where this is less likely when I have access to students beyond the classroom.
I replied to this message in response to the teacher pay comment. When teacher pay goes below a certain threshold, teachers begin to look for additional sources of income so that they can do things like send their children to college, also. Secondary jobs mean fewer teachers are available for those roles with students outside the classroom.
I, too, believe teachers can profoundly impact our children. That's why I left a successful career in Engineering to pursue a career in teaching. To maximize that impact we need to support those policies and practices that increase the opportunities for student/teacher interactions beyond the classroom.
Wow, thank you for contributing. I cannot even imagine what you are going through.
Slandusky wrote:
What I think this comes down to is the importance of our front-line infantry in the educational system: our teachers.
Look this part of society. As long as there is a degree of freedom in the school the student will interact, some will pick on the weaker and meeker. It's the way of the world and no teacher will make a difference in that.
If you make getting picked on into the worst thing in the world, then you are justifying crazy reactions to it like homicide and suicide.
I think that most people assume that bulling causes these type of incidents but i really don't think there is much evidence to suggest that. Just because most of the previous shooters have been bullied does not mean that the bulling caused them to do it. Almost every high school student is bullied in some way yet there are only a few shootings every year. Thats millions of students being bullied with only a handful every using a gun. I bet almost all school shooters have eaten at mcdonalds too, that doesnt mean mcdonalds causes violence. I am not saying that bulling is not a problem just that most of these cases probably are a lot more complicated.
Twitched wrote:
European Power Adaptation wrote:See, I have to take issue with that statement. In Middle School and High School, kids are at such an impressionable stage. Major damage can be done on a psychological level.
It is very easy to say "sticks and stones," but the truth is that someone's level of confidence can be severely affected by intimidation and humiliation. This can lead to poor grades, depression, etc. A cycle that is hard to break.
Kids are fvcking ruthless.
They are only ruthless of you pay attention to them. If you're still impressionable by the time you're in high school, then just give up on life.
And you weren't impressionable in high school? Give me a break. You do realize that high school kids are as young as 14.
"That being said, I still dislike the guy and it still bothers me. I am in my mid thirties. I can only imagine how much someone might suffer if they were truly bullied and made to feel like a nothing."
I have an experiment for you try.
1. Even though you dislike the bully what would happen
if imagined his voice sounding like chimpmunk?
2. When you imagine him, can you picture him morping
into a weasel, a whiskery nosed rabbit, a small grey
mouse, or even a three inch chihuahua?
Knowing that you can create an new image of that bully
doesn't it give you more power to be able to amuse
yourself. In effect mentally disposing of the bully.
Now the bully doesn't bother you anymore.
Pretty cool isn't it?
But if a person aims a toaster and pulls the trigger at someone else, does that person get toasted?
America cheers why it bullies multiple countries at the same time, and we wonder why our kids bully?
185,000 Iraqis ages 15-18 died from USA bombing and the subsequent diseases caused by the destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure due to that bombing. The entire Bhagdad sewage system was wiped out and spilled into the surrounding rivers and aquifers. 185,000!!
And America CHEERED.
3 bullies in Chardon die and America is paralyzed with fear and it's on TV 24/7.
Say Tann wrote:
individuals are allowed self defense (including use of deadly force) to defend themselves in many cases. bullying could certainly be one of them depending on specifics.
we are rapidly getting to the point in the US where carrying a weapon in school may be necessary. they are allowed now on many college campuses. i would bet that many a bully would think twice about picking on someone they saw was legally armed.
You are joking right? They don't really allow guns on college campuses?
Shoebacca wrote:
Guns don't kill people. Stupid gun laws do.
Echoes of liberals in the past:
Rocks don't kill people. Stupid rock laws do.
I can see no valid answer on how one can empathize with the shooter. Being bullied, no matter how relentless, is no justification for taking a human beings life.