Jim Peters MUST be in that list.
Jim Peters MUST be in that list.
stick in the mud wrote:
I never like these GOAT debates, unless it's in some sport where there is a clear cut GOAT (maybe Phelps in swimming, Tiger eventually in golf, and Gretzky in hockey). Otherwise, it just boils down to a bunch of people using a bunch of different criteria (time, WR's, championships, big wins against certain competition, longevity, breakthroughs, other factors) to argue for a bunch of different people. And it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change anything about any of these runners. Geb still has the WR (at least for now). Bekele still has his gold medals. Boston Billy still has his 8 total wins at NY and Boston. And most of these candidates never ran against each other (at least not in their prime).
...but carry on.
I agree (except that I think you mean Bikila, not Bekele). I admit that I was pleased to see Abera in Hersh's original list, since he was the first guy who came to my mind when I saw the thread topic, if only because he seems like one of the most consistently overlooked of the big-race champions. But when you start throwing in guys who ran 2:30 marathons sixty or seventy years ago, you're in a fantasy land that holds no interest for me.
He left out a ton of names, DeCastella,Salazar. Those 2 alone should have been ahead of Abera.
I don't really think that Sammy should be quite as high on the list quite yet. I think his Olympic Gold is probably on the short list for 'best performance of all time,' but if he were to quite marathoning next week, would he still be ranked that high? I think longevity is an integral part of both the race and a list of this sort, and it is a bit hasty to judge someone so early in their career.
I'm a huge Geb fan, but he doesn't compare to Lel and his overwhelming dominance in NY and London.
Leonard "Buddy" Edelen needs to be in this discussion.
WR 2:14:28 in 1963.
I believe the first man under 2:15.
6th place in 1964 Olympics despite being hampered by sciatica.
Won Yonkers in '64 trial race by 20 minutes (2:24) in 90 degree heat and humidity.
Can someone explain the importance of the Fukuoka Marathon to me? I'm having a hard understanding its utility as a measuring stick for marathoning greatness.
In the pre-prize money days, Fukuoka was considered the world championship. They invited the winners of all the top marathons and they raced. That's why it's considered by many THE measuring stick for a certain era.
Rodgers is a terrific guy, but for some of his big wins, all he had to do was beat Kirk Pfeffer or Jerome Drayton. His list of "scalps" isn't that great (yeah, he did beat Shorter in '76 in NYC, but that was Shorter with a stress fracture).
I'm another one who would not put Geb #1, probably wouldn't put him in the top 5. He's never won a marathon with more than three world class male runners in it, and his London resume is not even as good as Ryan Hall's.
Sammy Korir- 3rd fastest marathoner ever, 10 of 11 years he has broken 2:10- has anyone else done that?
First of all as the Marathon World record time gets faster it is exponentially harder to improve of the time.
Keeping this in mind, when Jim Peters first dropped the Marathon WR time to under 2:20 in 1953, the improvements came at a rate of about one minute at time after that.
That is until the record was down to 2:12:00, held by Morio Shigematsu in 1965.
Derek Clayton then obliterated the WR when he ran 2:09:36 in Fukuoka in 1967. He then followed that up with his historic 2:08:33 in Antwerp in 1969.
That was a massive drop in the WR to 2:09, from 5:02 pace down to 4:56 pace.
No runner has dropped the WR so much in one race, and in my opinion a 2:09 today is still an incredible time.
I know there are a fair amount of runners running 2:05-2:08....but not that many.
A 2:09 is still a magic time.
Therefore my vote goes to Derek Clayton to be near the top of the list of all time great Marathon runners.
I also doubt that not too many runners could tolerate the volume he did.
Avocados Number wrote:
stick in the mud wrote:I never like these GOAT debates, unless it's in some sport where there is a clear cut GOAT (maybe Phelps in swimming, Tiger eventually in golf, and Gretzky in hockey). Otherwise, it just boils down to a bunch of people using a bunch of different criteria (time, WR's, championships, big wins against certain competition, longevity, breakthroughs, other factors) to argue for a bunch of different people. And it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change anything about any of these runners. Geb still has the WR (at least for now). Bekele still has his gold medals. Boston Billy still has his 8 total wins at NY and Boston. And most of these candidates never ran against each other (at least not in their prime).
...but carry on.
I agree (except that I think you mean Bikila, not Bekele). I admit that I was pleased to see Abera in Hersh's original list, since he was the first guy who came to my mind when I saw the thread topic, if only because he seems like one of the most consistently overlooked of the big-race champions. But when you start throwing in guys who ran 2:30 marathons sixty or seventy years ago, you're in a fantasy land that holds no interest for me.
Yes, Bikila. He was before my time so I'm not as used to the spelling of his name. Although that Bekele fellow might end up on this list some day also.
Best of the current crop are:
1.Gharib
2.Wanjiru
3.Lel
4.Baldini
5.Khannouchi
but Tadesse will wipe the floor with them all when he comes around.
Geb is a disgrace skipping the marathon and ruining his legacy. Runnnig against the clock in Berlin, who gives a f***.
gotta agree - and what about Decastella?
Thanks Guzzo for putting me in your top list. I thought i had been forgoten. I had a great time during my racing days 1985-1993
Thanks Gonzo, It is nice to reading my name being floated 15 years later
Thanks Gonzo, It is nice reading my name being floated 15 years later
Pull runners #3 (Wanjiru), #8 (drug cheat) and #12 (Pheidippides).
Its too early to be ranking Wanjiru so high on this list. Only time will tell what Wanjiru's legacy will be.
If this list were written 6 yrs ago you would have Khannouchi in the top 3 and where is he now?
Pull the drug cheat and pull Pheidippides because he had no competition.
That opens 3 slots.
Put Robert Cheruiyot on this list (4 Bostons, 1 Chicago, plus other marathon wins).
Put KK on the list.
Someone else?
trailblazer wrote:
Pull runners #3 (Wanjiru), #8 (drug cheat) and #12 (Pheidippides).
Its too early to be ranking Wanjiru so high on this list. Only time will tell what Wanjiru's legacy will be.
If this list were written 6 yrs ago you would have Khannouchi in the top 3 and where is he now?
Pull the drug cheat and pull Pheidippides because he had no competition.
That opens 3 slots.
Put Robert Cheruiyot on this list (4 Bostons, 1 Chicago, plus other marathon wins).
Put KK on the list.
Someone else?
I agree with this poster. It seems an extreme oversight to leave KK of the list. I'd combine Clayton/Ron Hill/Jerome Drayton since they all seemed to bring marathoning into the modern era. Geb belongs on the list simply because he has run the distance 56 seconds faster than anyone else.
trailblazer wrote:
Pull runners #3 (Wanjiru), #8 (drug cheat) and #12 (Pheidippides).
Its too early to be ranking Wanjiru so high on this list. Only time will tell what Wanjiru's legacy will be.
If this list were written 6 yrs ago you would have Khannouchi in the top 3 and where is he now?
Pull the drug cheat and pull Pheidippides because he had no competition.
That opens 3 slots.
Put Robert Cheruiyot on this list (4 Bostons, 1 Chicago, plus other marathon wins).
Put KK on the list.
Someone else?
I agree with this poster. It seems an extreme oversight to leave KK off the list. I'd combine Clayton/Ron Hill/Jerome Drayton since they all seemed to bring marathoning into the modern era. Geb belongs on the list simply because he has run the distance 56 seconds faster than anyone else.
3 Americans in the top 7?
you people make the rest of the world laugh. Thanks for the entertainment. Frank Shorter #2 HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA