Renato, thank you for supporting Fred's point that Yego would not be tested, and likely has gone his career without being tested OOC, given his low ranking. He should be regarded as highly suspicious as such.
Renato, thank you for supporting Fred's point that Yego would not be tested, and likely has gone his career without being tested OOC, given his low ranking. He should be regarded as highly suspicious as such.
Twinn wrote:
Splits according to above article
14:45 (14:45)
28:06 (13:21)
41:54 (13:48)
58:44 (16:50 for 6.1k, ~13:45 5k)
So he did a 27:09 10km split in this race? Not bad seen as his 10km best is 28:19.
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/kenya/solomon-kirwa-yego-271406It seems very clear that the splits are not correct. For my experience, the first 5 km are the downhill part of the race, while the second 5 km are completely flat, so in my opinion the reporter did a mistake while writing (probably 13:45 + 14:21, that are the most real splits). In Roma - Ostia, there are not electronic splits, but only the final time connected with the transponders, and there are not official splits, so it's very easy to have mistakes about the pace of the race.
My informations speak about a strong tailwind (very much stronger than in Boston 2011...), and, being the course practically almost straight for the first 18 km, we can suppose the help in this case could be around one minute (probably 50 seconds for men, 1:10' for women).
I don't think a REAL improvement of about 30" from his PB can contribute to have too many suspicions.
And about the fact that it's not possible to run many HM in 61' in one season, I had, for example, one athlete training with Abel Kirui (and very much weaker of Abel), Eliud Tarus, who ran on 6th of March the HM of Den Haag in 61'11", and one week later (13th of March) the full Marathon in Barcelona in 2:11'19".
These are very normal performances for athletes looking at very short period of shape with the goal to earn some money. They pay, physically, after the accumulation of the combined fatigues, and don't train anymore for the next two months, but have some money for maintaining their family and, may be, for increasing the level of their farm.
And, for your info, in 2000 or 2001 (now I don't remember in exact way) the Italian Giorgio Calcaterra (in the next years winner of WCh 100 km) ran in 14 weeks 13 Marathon between 2:13:15 and 2:19 (every week under 2:20).
When I'll go back Italy in April, I'll give the exact details of this, so people can quit to think that running a Marathon is something "superhuman".
Renato Canova wrote:
It seems very clear that the splits are not correct. For my experience, the first 5 km are the downhill part of the race, while the second 5 km are completely flat, so in my opinion the reporter did a mistake while writing (probably 13:45 + 14:21, that are the most real splits). In Roma - Ostia, there are not electronic splits, but only the final time connected with the transponders, and there are not official splits, so it's very easy to have mistakes about the pace of the race.
My informations speak about a strong tailwind (very much stronger than in Boston 2011...), and, being the course practically almost straight for the first 18 km, we can suppose the help in this case could be around one minute (probably 50 seconds for men, 1:10' for women).
I don't think a REAL improvement of about 30" from his PB can contribute to have too many suspicions.
And about the fact that it's not possible to run many HM in 61' in one season, I had, for example, one athlete training with Abel Kirui (and very much weaker of Abel), Eliud Tarus, who ran on 6th of March the HM of Den Haag in 61'11", and one week later (13th of March) the full Marathon in Barcelona in 2:11'19".
These are very normal performances for athletes looking at very short period of shape with the goal to earn some money. They pay, physically, after the accumulation of the combined fatigues, and don't train anymore for the next two months, but have some money for maintaining their family and, may be, for increasing the level of their farm.
And, for your info, in 2000 or 2001 (now I don't remember in exact way) the Italian Giorgio Calcaterra (in the next years winner of WCh 100 km) ran in 14 weeks 13 Marathon between 2:13:15 and 2:19 (every week under 2:20).
When I'll go back Italy in April, I'll give the exact details of this, so people can quit to think that running a Marathon is something "superhuman".
Nothing was said about marathons. It was the 9 half marathons in 61-62
( 4:40 to 4:43 pace) in one year.
Interesting point, would be cool to know the true spllits. For sure, 13:21 second 5k can't be right??! Would be absolutely astounding!!
For your info, in 2015 Yego ran 3 HM, in 2014 ran 2 HM + one race of 20 km, in 2013 he ran 2 HM. I think you look at 2012, when a crazy manager looking at his own interests only put him in 8 marathons, with the last 3 in 3 following weeks.
Here there are his HM of 2012 :
25.03 61:49
09.04 63:33
06.05 62:46
19.08 63:08
16.09 63:08
14.10 61:34
21:10 61:37
28.10 62:02 (so, are 8 and not 9, an only 3 of them are between 61:00 and 62:00)
It was exactly the fact he was able to run the last 3 HM in 2 weeks with good consistency that convinced him to have some talent, and that had to change manager for saving his career.
During the next years, his activity was very much more logic :
2013 :
29.09 61:56
96.10 64:23
2014 :
25.05 61:59
28.09 62:50
26.10 60:53 (20 km)
2015 :
19.04 60:47
20.09 60:04
18.10 61:33
Last year he changed again management and coach, so it's absolutely not a surprise his value of 59:30 (which is his real time without the strong tailwind).
What I frequently see in LR is that almost nobody has the idea about what top athletes do in training. For example, speaking about Cheserek ("Greatest double in track and field history"), what there is so unbelievable in his performances, when we know that his time in 5000m (13'47") is THE PACE FOR THE WR OF 20 KM ?
Can I give you some example of training of top athletes (and Cheserek probably is already an athlete able to compete with the top 30 in the World) ?
Shaheen 4 x 1600m (4'30" recovery) in 3'56" - 3'59" - 3'58" - 3'57" in the morning, and 2 x [ 5 x 300m, rec. 50" ] with average of 38.5 (first set) and the 2nd set in 39" - 37"3 - 37"2 - 37"3 - 37"0 (rec. 2'50" among the sets) ?
Or Nicholas Kemboi in St. Moritz before running 26'30" in Bruxelles, with 4 x 3000m with racing shoes, in 8'15" - 8'18" - 8'17" - 8'15", running between every 3000m one set of 6 x 50m sprint uphill, and after the last session of sprint putting spikes for running a final 1000m in 2'29" (1'06" first 400m + 1'23" the last 600m in progression) ?
The fact is that you mix everything, not knowing the real talent of the top runners, but looking at the talent (of course limited) of the athletes you know.
This is true for the top performances, but also for the "recovery" after performances that, according to you, are very hard, but compared with the level of top athletes are, instead, very weak.
If Yego is an athlete of world class, where is the problem to run in two following weeks two HM in 61'30", that combined together don't produce the WR in the full Marathon ?
You don't have the "meter" for mesuring the level of performances, and consider everything according to your experience, limited to the activity of Young athletes in college, or athletes of medium international level.
This is like considering the Genius of Einstein compared with any student who is good in mathematics, or the talent of Pavarotti compared with everybody sings while shaving himself.
Most tested nation - tested in Kenya - NOT. Stop spinning the bs , any testing is announced and the overseas testing is predictable. Don't try and compare this to the US. There are worse nations - but don't pretend it's all sweetness and nice
Coach Canova
What do you think of the upcoming race of the World half Marathon in Cardiff
Mo Farah Vs Jeff Komorwor
Thanks
Repeating: Roma-Ostia downhill and tailwind yesterday, maybe was a 60minutes with a normal course. Yego did 61 in Cremona some months earlier
Renato Canova wrote:
My informations speak about a strong tailwind (very much stronger than in Boston 2011...), and, being the course practically almost straight for the first 18 km, we can suppose the help in this case could be around one minute (probably 50 seconds for men, 1:10' for women).
I don't think a REAL improvement of about 30" from his PB can contribute to have too many suspicions.
.
Nope the tailwind at noon was @ 13 mph. That is not a strong tailwind like at Boston. The wind was lighter earlier in the day.
fred wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:My informations speak about a strong tailwind (very much stronger than in Boston 2011...), and, being the course practically almost straight for the first 18 km, we can suppose the help in this case could be around one minute (probably 50 seconds for men, 1:10' for women).
I don't think a REAL improvement of about 30" from his PB can contribute to have too many suspicions.
.
Nope the tailwind at noon was @ 13 mph. That is not a strong tailwind like at Boston. The wind was lighter earlier in the day.
The race started between 9 and 9:30. According to the weather station there was no strong tailwind.
Renato 61 to 63:xx - 8 of them.
Your spin isn't working.
Thanks for the information. I know nothing about Yego or the course. I'll assume the course is really fast. Quick questions:
1. To your point about 10.2 runners, I understand what you are saying but I think you would agree that, if a historically 10.2 runner became a 9.85 runner in a year, there would be a lot of questions. Do you agree? I think the concern is that people are seeing a bunch of 59s and 2:04-5s, which seem to come out of nowhere and are, in many cases, not repeated. In some of those cases, the runners and their agents (as you point out) are getting paid a lot of prize money and subsequent appearance fees.
2. Are you saying the Kenyan and Ethiopian top 10 runners are tested equivalently to the U.S.? I am not clear on your point.Also, if there is all of this testing, why are we hearing so much about Eth and Kenya now?
3. Why does Chebet's result not count in terms of a doping problem? we have a Kenya world XC team member / 58 HM runner caught on a PED, a WMM champion (Jeptoo) on EPO, and a women's world cross champion. Then there are all the other people who are not elite.
Renato Canova wrote:
Fred, I'm really tired to read stupidities as you wrote.
Do you know the position in Kenya in 2015 of Solomon Kirwa Yego ? He was n. 27. Find a Country that goes to test OOC some athletes n. 27 in the national list, and I quit immediately to follow athletics.
Go to see in the site of IAAF the new statistics about the antidoping controls during 2014 : you can see that the MOST TESTED ATHLETES IN THE WORLD, both in competition and OOC, both fur urine and blood, both for normal antidoping and for the Biological Passport, are KENYAN.
So, one thing is to say that the local antidoping (managed by a Kenyan Agency) doesn't exist or doesn't work (that's true), another thing to say that Kenyan are not tested, BECAUSE THIS IS A BIG LIE AND AN UNBELIEVABLE BULLSHIT.
The problem is that, because the quantity of athletes running in every part of the world, Kenyan go to win the most part of their races. But you must understand one thing : the athletes in top 30 in the World are part of the Whereabout system of IAAF, and are systematically tested by task forces of WADA of IAAF itself ; the athletes NON in TOP 10 OF THE COUNTRY are not tested by anybody, but the same thing happens IN ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
Do you think the USADA goes to test OOC some sprinter running 10'20" ? Put in your mind that Kenyan running Marathon in 2:07' are exactly the same of US sprinters of 10'20", as their position inside the Country.
So, also if there is a Kenyan Antidoping Agency working, what can change ? One thing only : to put antidoping controls IN ALL THE DOMESTIC COMPETITIONS, in order to take this 3rd level athletes who look at doping hoping to close the gap with the bests, WHO ARE TOTALLY CLEAN.
I'm really tired to read a lot of stupidities from people who NEVER came Kenya, NEVER had some idea of the life in this Country, NEVER met a real top talent, NEVER had idea about what they do in training, NEVER had the opportunity to speak with somebody of them, and EVER think to know what happens here, what there is in the mind of people, which the level of life and education is, starting from the news that some idiot and not honest journalist looking for scoops only and for personal advantages spreads around.
Only people totally idiot can compare a doped athlete of Kenya (who can have an average income in one year of 2000 USD when is lucky) with Lance Armstrong, only people without brain can compare the organization of some team of cyclists, costing one million dollars, with the assumption of tablets costing 2 USD each one.
I don't say all Kenyan are clean, I know personally people who try to climb mirrors for increasing their results. But these are ignorant people, normally not strong (for Kenyan parameters), abused by doctors and pharmacists who go to cheat them using their ignorance, their lack of education, and their dreams.
If somebody of high level used doping (and the only two cases were Rita Jeptoo and Mathew Kisorio), was because also in this case the common denominator was IGNORANCE, LITTLE EDUCATION and SMALL BRAIN.
Different the case of Emily Chebet, for example, who is married to an athlete already using doping in the past, and who for that reason quitted his career.
Before speaking and calumning athletes who are guilty for being talented and very hard workers only, I think the most part of people here have to wash their mouth, and possibly their brain too. But I suppose the last thing is almost impossible.
1. - Is there a doping problem in Kenya, YES.
How do we know, it is obvious based on numerous positives and corrupt officials.
2. Is there widespread systemic doping among the top tier athletes, NO.
How do we know, it is obvious based on the fact that most of the top tier athletes are not testing positive. Also, like the US, Kenya athletes are not controlled by a state funded program. Kenya athletes compete and train all over the world and are tested in those countries in addition to Kenya.
3. U.S. and European athletes also test positive, but it is the result of bad individuals and is not a label you can put on an entire country.
Btw, contrary to what you said, 10.2 U.S. sprinters are tested, but not as frequently as a 9.9 sprinter per se. If you are saying 2:07 Kenyan marathoners are not being tested, that's problem because with a good doping program, those 2:07 athletes become 2:04 athletes.
My main point is that people must quit to say athletes in Kenya are not tested.
It's absolutely not true. Yesterady, for example, Jairus Birech had already his 2nd OOC test (urine), after having already two blood tests, here in Iten.
I can accept any discussion about doping in Kenya. There is a problem of doping for the second an third lines, and the most qualified athletes are the one who want this problem solved. PAK (with Wilson Kipsang leader) and individual as Wesley Korir (who is a member of the Kenyan Parliament) are already discussing a law for jailing all people connected with doping, including the athletes, and this shows the will to solve the problem, by the side of those athletes who are the first to be accused of doping every time run fast.
But, in this discussion, I DON'T ACCEPT ANY LIE ABOUT THE REALITY.
I never said the system in Kenya works. I Always say Kenyan Athletes are tested, very frequently, OOC, for both blood and urine, and not from now only, since some my athlete (Florence Kiplagat, Moses Mosop, Abel Kirui) of top level already in 2009 had blood tests in Kenya.
About the story that tests are announced, this is another great bullshit.
All the test OOC for urine are totally not announced, the task force of IAAF arrives (normally not during the Windows athletes wrote in their whereabout, but in any hour of the day) and nobody knows. About blood, instead, here they use the system to call few hours before (normally 2 hours if during the day, 5-6 hours if during the night) a Group of athletes, who must go in the house of Paul Scott (IAAF responsible for the antidoping in Kenya, original from Canada), where there is the only possibility to preserve in the right way the integrity of every sample. But put in your mind that blood tests have a precise task : to collect data for the BP, and under this point of view NOTHING can be done in 2-6 hours for changing, for example, the relation between retycolocytes endogenous or coming from assumption of EPO.
For testing all the kenyan athletes who suddenly move from 2:12 to 2:07, the ADAK needed to have a budget 3 times higher than in US, and, because this is not possible, there is not PREVENTION for some doping of these athletes. The only thing possible to do is AFTER they have this skip of quality : a domestic agency can work SPECIFICALLY with athletes coming from nothing, of course only AFTER they had the result.
You need, however, to know the local situation. Here there are a lot of athletes who eat only once per day and drink some tea, because don't have money enough for surviving in different way. They try to change their life running : their training is ONLY RUNNING, don't have a Group, don't have a coach, don't have a manager. So, they run a local Marathon, maybe in 2:20, with all these problems.
Then, one day, they meet one top athlete running his personal camp (for example, Geoffrey Mutai or Wilson Kipsang), coming from the same community, and are inviting to join the athletes of the camp because it seems they have good attitudes, but little training. They finally can eat 3 times per day, have a training plan (build for another athlete, but better than nothing), and, because the top athlete running the camp is very tough about training, they know that, if are not serious and tough with themselves, after few days are thrown out of the camp. With different training, different recover, different food, they improve dramatically, and after 6 months can run 2:07 - 2:08, that for a Kenyan is a very normal time.
These are the explanation of these times coming from nothing, not doping.
But I don't deny there is some athlete who asks for support, exactly how in any other Country. They ask for some LEGAL support, the problem is that the doctor or the pharmacist gives him something not completely legal (all the medicines with roids inside), because of the Countries from the most part of pharmacs come (normally India, China and Asian Countries, where there is not the MUST to list ALL THE SUBSTANCES that are in the pharmac). So, their mentality is not to assume some doping, but to have some support as supplement, and this is exactly the mentality I don't like, and I want to fight, that is the mentality of the majority of athletes European and American.
And, because I don't believe in the effects of blood doping, I can assure that there are no athletes moving from 2:07 to 2:04 because of doping. Maybe they move from 2:10 to 2:07 BECAUSE OF MORE TRAINING, and this becomes possible in their mind BECAUSE of doping, but I continue to say there are not direct influences of blood doping on the performances for athletes with hard training, living in altitude (and nobody can make me change idea, till when physiologists don't come here following day by day the top athletes, finally understanding the variations inducted by training in their physiology).
You have good points.
1) In the case of a sprinter moving suddenly from 10.20 to under 10.00, we can see that frequently happens with Young athletes in NCAA. I don't know if they are tested BEFORE the competition, but normally the procedure for being tested starts AFTER their result. In the case of Marathon runners, of course who can suddenly move from 2:07 (10.20 equivalent) to 2:05 (under 10.00 equivalent) AFTER his improvement is tested with good frequency. So, we must accept the idea that, AFTER the performance, they have to be clean, or that are so smart to be able to avoid every type of test with the scientific organization they have in Kenya (living in some barrack without electricity, running water and, of course, any possibility to have a frizier where to preserve their EPO).
I have to explain, instead, that with 2:05-2:06 the most part of unknown Marathon runners don't earn all the money you can suppose. Normally, these times come from Dubai, and, if the winner can earn 200,000 USD, the second 80,000, the third 40,000, we can see athletes under 2:06 in 8th position, with a prize of 3,000 USD.
Where there are big prizes (the Major), these athletes are not invited, and you must know that the Major themselves organize tough antidoping tests, not only the day before the race and after the race, but giving some contribution to WADA in order to test OOC, already months before their race, all the athletes invited (that means all the best in the World).
This after the cases of Shobukhova and Rita Jeptoo.
Now, to have doubts about Marathon runners running in some Major, is only an exercise of ignorance about what antidoping is doing.
2) I don't know the frequency of tests for the best athletes in the world if they belong to Countries as US or UK, but I know that the best Kenyan are tested OOC, and in Kenya, 7-10 times in one year for urine, and not less than 4 times for blood. These tests are carried out from WADA (a task force from South Africa) and IAAF. The tests don't cover the top 10 in Kenya and Ethiopia, but of sure the top 5 in the World (who incidentally are the one creating more suspicion because of their performances).
3) It's not that the case of Chebet is not doping. I explained the case of Chebet as typical example of ignorance and of social mentality still existing in Kenya, also if now things start to change. Why social mentality ? Because Emily Chebet never asked anything, but accepted in passive way what the husband (the real problem) gave her, without asking what it was and it's effect. And why this happened ? Because in the old Kenyan mentality the husband (or the father) had in their hands ALL the decisions of the family, and the social role of women was only to work, to have babies and to accept every decision from the men. It's not a case that the most part of doped kenyans are women. May be you don't know that, till 1996, married women (athletes) were not allowed to compete in Trials for WCh or OG, and only after that period there was some improvement in this social issue. Since many top athletes come from rural areas and have very little education, this type of relation inside the family is still diffused, and some times can bring to wrong effects, as in the case of Emily Chebet.
Thanks Renato
How well do you think Galen Rupp will run in the Olympic marathon?
My brain is mush from the drugs.
Renato, when again will we see a full build-up of one of your athletes over 8-9 weeks or more? I would love to see a top female and/or an older runner coming back from injury (Mosop?).
How do you handle injury? What is the recovery and the return?
fred wrote:
9 half marathons in 61-62
( 4:40 to 4:43 pace) in one year.
Uh... Fred caught lying again.