Magness: My Interactions With Lance Armstrong

Sagarin wrote:

Barakus Obama wrote:

Being a nice guy doesn' t mean you don't cheat, your arguments are intellectually flawed.

Ironic that you chose this particular moniker to pen what you did.

He penned what?

Going to repost because the page got flipped. I will repeat, is Jager doped up too?

Not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, all of the guys mentioned were pretty damn talented to begin with, and Rupp, Ritz, and Centro were all low 8:40 guys coming out of high school, Rupp and Centro on low mileage. Moreover, Rupp ran 13:37 the summer after high school, 28:15 as a true frosh in college, and Ritz won a bronze medal in world cross, dropped a 13:27 as a true frosh, and had already run an 8:11 two-mile (same as Webb) and had an enormous base before he joined Salazar's group. Goucher? Well he went from 13:11 to nowheresville back to 13:10. He did come back, but he didn't really improve.

I think people get suspicious of the various associations, the thyroid medication, the iron bullet injections, and the synthetic altitude house, all of which may skirt the envelope of legality. Forget about drugs. I don't see Ritz breaking 13:00 without that house. The thing is, Ritz had one great year coming off of his base with Hudson before lighting up the track, but his 10k PR is not really any better than one would've otherwise expected. Heck, the Brojos projected him to be the first American under 27:00, yet Ritz struggled to make the Olympic team and was nowhere near being able to kick with his teammates, despite doing purportedly the same workouts. Yes, he didn't have the same base, but, then again, he may just lack the raw leg speed.

Rupp and Mo's finishes at the Olympics do make you have to wonder though. Heck, I think if Galen had stuck on Mo like glue and not waited until the end to make his move, he may very well have won gold. Impossible? No, not with raw talent, high altitude living/low altitude training, and an underwater treadmill to stave off injury and put in more miles? Improbable? Well, probably.

It's up to others to decide. I do know that we've never had a more talented schoolboy than Rupp, unless you think he was doing drugs then, considering what he did with relatively low mileage. I mean, if Cam Levins breaks 13:00 and 27:00 this year, is it because of drugs or hard work, or do drugs give him the ability to sustain the kind of mileage he is doing, whereas, Al Sal's group has the live high/train low and run extra miles in the pool down to a science?

I don't know how I feel about this. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Ritz's 2:07 marathon was clean, unless you think Steve Jones was dirty back in the early to mid-80s.

A Duck, while I get the gist of your point about Catholic morality, I have Catholic friends that throw morality completely out the window when under pressure. It's almost like Catholicism has a built in, "Sin, but confess and repent" repeatedly mentality built into it. I'd like to think these guys are clean, but, I just don't know. It is true that Wejo went from essentially a 4:30 high school mile at low altitude to a 28:06 PR. Ritz, Centro, and Rupp were a heck of a lot more talented as preps. What about Jager? Is he doped up too? I mean, 8:06 in his first year of steepling and really his first full healthy year. And he maintained his fitness for a LONG time, having opened up at Mt. Sac. Is Jerry's group under the same kind of pressure?[/quote]

Sagarin wrote:

synthetic altitude house, all of which may skirt the envelope of legality. Forget about drugs. I don't see Ritz breaking 13:00 without that house.

I think you're forgetting something important here, its not illegal with a synthetic altitude house.

If Ritz had decided to live in that altitude then, making it 'real' altitude and performed in the same way, would you then care that he used altitude to his advantage? It can be argued that the Kenyans have altitude to their advantage, why is it wrong for other nations to do the same, although synthetical?

As pointed out in a thread that I created and which was deleted within minutes:

A Duck refers to the AW coach as the pied piper, and then coincidentally this same morning someone using the handle "pay the piper" makes a random thread for no purpose other than to sh!t on Adidas. A Duck is a Nike guerrilla marketer and arguing with him is pointless. It is possible A Duck is actually an account used by several marketers. It seems odd that at one point in this very thread, he makes three consecutive but different posts each making the same point.

He says many outlandish things, probably to divert your suspicions away from those he is protecting. Just an fyi.

Sagarin wrote:

agip, I also understand that you may just be being sarcastic, but my point stands nonetheless. Is it wishful thinking, or does Salazar just get the cream of the crop and groom them very carefully, barely within the confines of keeping it legal?

I think the NOP boys are clean. (but I am, by purposeful decision naive on doping. I would rather believe the best in people and be disappointed a couple times than be negative on everyone and always be disappointed.)

Also, my earlier sarcastic point was really pointed to the complex coverup/conspiracy theory that Magness left after seeing doping, rather than the simple reason that he had a romantic relationship with an athlete. Occam's razor would suggest that he had to leave for Areson, not to escape a massive coverup.

Anyway, to your question. as many people have pointed out on lrc, a coach is good, but a training group is great. Both work together to create a great team like NOP.

Alberto (like Lance, interestingly) is a charismatic guy who is able to get people to want to do things for him. I remember KGoucher in blubbery tears after a big race saying 'I have the best coach in the world'. That kind of feeling gets boys out of a trench to charge the enemy, and to want to win really badly on the track.

But, like FM at the HS level, it's not just the coach - training with a group that believes it is the best in the world is like a magic elixir (heh heh) - it makes a world class athlete the extra 1% to get on the podium.

So is it wishful thinking to think Alberto's group is clean? I don't think so. But I am willfully suspending disbelief so who knows.

Longlivemeds wrote:

I think you're forgetting something important here, its not illegal with a synthetic altitude house.

If Ritz had decided to live in that altitude then, making it 'real' altitude and performed in the same way, would you then care that he used altitude to his advantage? It can be argued that the Kenyans have altitude to their advantage, why is it wrong for other nations to do the same, although synthetical?

I didn't say it was illegal, though there are physiological questions as to whether a house or tent fortified with nitrogen is the SAME thing as actually living at altitude. Moreover, the Kenyans don't have the same advantage of living high, training low. They generally live high, train high. I'm not saying that Al Sal's camp takes PEDs. I'm saying it is a fair question, all the while clinging to the notion that maybe, just maybe, they have all the perfect conditions to maximize performance that others don't have access too.

First, I do as agip when talks about doping.

Then, most kenyans live high train high, but most kenyans aren't top 5. There are kenyans using advanced methods just like living high, training low.

You say there are physiological questions, where? I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious.

Sagarin wrote:

Ironic that you chose this particular moniker to pen what you did.

Hm?

A Duck and Lance.

Even more horrible human beings than we even imagined.

unicorns wrote:

I am almost tempted to explain how things really work in the sports world it just isnt worth the effort. If you believe that Salazar and his boys are clean then I envy you. Wish my attitude wasnt so jaded and I believed that every white guy who drops a 1:52 last 800 on a 1500 meter world champion at the end of a 5k, when two years prior didnt even have the basic speed to run 1:52, is clean then the world would be a lot less complicated. There is a very clear reason why Magness said what he did, just like there is a very clear reason why Alan and Kara left after short stays. Have fun in fantasy land!

Rupp ran 1:49 indoors in 2009.

NOP follower wrote:

Magness mentions "interactions with Lance and other athletes" who doped. I wonder who those "other athletes" are...

You can't read.

Magness wrote "My interactions with Lance and other athletes have shaped who I am and influenced why I coach. I see the frustration in endurance athletes who do it the right way, and my hope is that I, along with other coaches, can help athletes achieve those unbelievable performances cleanly, without having a cloud of suspicion hanging over them, which is an unfortunate reality in sports today."

Magness doesn't say that "other athletes" doped. He is contrasting the influence on him of Lance - who doped - with the influence of seeing the "frustration" of other athletes he has had interactions with "who do it the right way."

unicorns wrote:

just like there is a very clear reason why Alan and Kara left after short stays.

Kara was with Salazar for 7 years. You think that's a "short stay"?

Magness , interesting character. Salazar bought into his scientific BS analysis trying to gain an edge for his athletes. Magness is not a high level elite coach , he has been around world class athletes but he not recognized by anybody in the world of coaching as a real coach. He pontificates science and try's to interpret his idea's into something that may or may not benefit athletes.

His contract expired after two years and it was not renewed. It was explained very simply , he didn't bring anything to the party and athletes did not respect him.

He had little to do with Lance , its funny how he try's to interpret as knowing more. We all know Lance is super competitive and has a take no prisoners attitude. Have you ever met Michael Johnson or Carl Lewis , there are some similarities with super elites.

Bottom line Lance is an arrogant prick.

Magness has had his 15 minutes that he is trying to extend.

When I first started reading the article and he mentioned Webb and Moise Joseph, I thought, "big deal, he's referencing the time he was taking that class, so of course he isn't going to reference Rupp, Ritz, Mo".

But then later when he says:

"I've been involved in this sport at high levels for a number of years, have coached amazing athletes like Jackie Areson and Sara Hall, and have seen the work athletes like Alan Webb and Ryan Hall put in day in and day out. This gives me faith that amazing things can be done the right way, without the need for performance-enhancing drugs."

and...

"When I left Nike last year, I often thought back to my interactions with a known drug cheat like Lance"

and...

" Now, for some it means crossing the grey line into cheating."

It seems like he lays it on pretty thick. I'm not saying I think those guys are taking drugs, but I am saying that Magness leads the reader to believe he has witnessed it as part of Salazar's crew.

Why he does that can be anyone's guess.

But its pretty plain to see.

Funny how an article about Lance Armstrong turns into a NOP drug article.

I'd like to see how many people on this thread are either paid Nike employees doing slander/damage control, and how many are anti-nike/drug pessimists egging things on.

My understanding is that Magness was asked to leave or not renewed as a coach by the NOP. I think the simple explanation for the athletes he mentions or doesn't mention in his story is that he doesn't want to praise athletes who are still with the program that let him go. Instead he praises the athletes that he coaches, Sara Hall and Jackie Areson, Ryan Hall, who is married to one of his athletes, and Alan Webb, who left the NOP and for whom the NOP can claim no credit.

That seems natural for someone who left the NOP on not good terms. It also seems to me that if he was let go by the NOP and knew they were doping he would be the 1st one to blow the whistle on them given his apparent attitude toward Armstrong.

I have no more knowledge about the NOP than anyone else here and if they are doping I hope they go down, but I don't believe in explaining things by conspiracy theories that can be explained more simply by normal human behavior.

I believed and hoped the Oregon Project were clean athletes before I read this article, but now I'm more than concerned. To me, there seems little doubt what he is trying to allude to in the piece. When he brings up clean, world class athletes, you really wonder why he didn't mention Rupp or Farah, seeing as he worked closely with them for a decent period of time when they were at or near the top (2011-2012). One of the most telling lines, to me, is the following:

"My dream is to get to the point where an American does something Beamon-esque in the endurance events, and we can point to them as role models in our sport without having to worry if five years from now they will be exposed as a low-life drug cheat."

Now, Rupp's silver was nowhere near on par with Beamon's leap, but in terms of American distance running, and endurance sports, Rupp's silver in an event so dominated for the last few decades by East Africa, was pretty huge. To me, the 'read between the lines' meaning of that line is that he felt unable to celebrate Rupp's performance because of something he has either seen or heard about him. Whether it is the thyroid meds they're on that he feels is ethically questionable, or something more sinister, is anyone's guess, but to me there seems no doubt from the piece that he is not confident in the Oregon Project's honesty. He also casually mentions Alberto being 'friends' with Armstrong. True as that may be, if he believed Alberto was doing things the right way you have to wonder if he'd publicly write that he was friends with sport's biggest fraud.

TLW wrote:

Why would Magness leave a coaching position for the world's best distance group at the biggest sporting company in the world? Hmmm...use your brain and read between the lines people.

My understanding was that Magness and Salazar had a disagreement about whether ice baths and cryosaunas and such were a good idea?

Magness didn't choose to leave as I understand it. I could be wrong.

deleuze wrote:

How Fast? wrote:

Wow. I don't know how you can read this an anything else other than an idictment of Nike, the Oregon Project and the athletes he helped coach there. He doesn't cite Rupp and Farah as examples of athletes who do it the right way, nor does he hold up Salazar as an example of a coach who believes that amazing performances can be had by clean athletes. I mean, we're talking about two athletes who won silver and gold medals, respectively. Um, you would think he would be kind of excited to talk about those performances as clean ones. Instead, he mentions Webb, who left the OP, and Hall. I don't think his message could be clearer.

Yep.

guys, el guerrouj paced lance over the last 10k at his first marathon. PACED!!