High School Coaches, How Do You Get Your Kids To Tempo Run Dual Meets Without Being Embarrassed?

I believe I mentioned that in my post, instruct the (assumed superior) athlete not to lead, then race last x meters, depending on race length. I think we agree on that for racing skills purposes, yes?

Right, so I would say the biggest thing I've gotten from this thread is that, rather than tempo running the shorter races, use it as an opportunity to work on a particular racing skill. I.e. a person running the mile might start out at a slower pace for the first couple laps, then pick it up from there and work on his kick.

Very helpful, thanks! I think for the two mile you can still get a decent tempo run in, but for the shorter races, like the mile or 1000, it's probably better to work on racing skills.

Yes, sorry for not noticing that, I should have read your post more carefully rather than just glance over it. My apologies again.

I can see where the AD is coming from here as I do have a bit of a hockey mindset myself.

A few things to consider:

A) How do you guys stack up against the other schools?

B) How large is the team?

C) What is the timing of these dual meets?

how I'ld take it:

Dual Meets: the two ones I'ld take seriously:

- Arch Rivals

- Top Squad

as for the others: easily treat them as a workout and get them to learn how to race (not blue ball themselves).

Invitationals: I would pick one, maybe 2 invitationals to take seriously. After all, the races that matter are the finals.

Team Size: can you get away with having your athletes run only 1/2 - 1/4 of the meets listed? Also, race experience is very critical in athlete development and if done properly they will know how to race come the key meets.

As for Timing: say the meets are tuesday and saturday, here is how I'ld have things:

Tues: Dual Meet or easy run

Wed: Long Tempo or Tempo + Workout (can be done thursday instead, depending on how hard the dual meet was)

Thurs: easy run

Fri: easy run or pre race

Sat: Invitational or workout

Sun: Long Run

Mon: OFF or super easy (these guys are in HS. they need some form of recovery to gain the benefits of harder trainig)

Final tip: As you are being thrown into a harsh racing schedule, ensure the top ones are not pushing workouts too hard.

Indoor? wrote:

I think he kind of means that. Why burn your kids up in duel meets early in the year or indoors when the most important meets of the season are at the end regionals, state meet, possibly national meets etc...

I hope that's the case, obviously late season meets are more important, and also I think Indoor Track is a complete waste of time for distance runners. 12-15 indoor meets is a ton, I cant imagine doing that.

sorry if I came off angry, but dont put your kids in that position. figure something out, run them out of their normal event, etc..

don't tempo the duals. Change up the race events the kids do. Have them run the 800/400 & 4X4 in duals and the 1600/3200 in invitationals. If you must have them race the 1600/3200 @ duals, have them jog the curves & work the straights, so everyone can see they're doing a workout & it won't look so much like they suck.

Does the HC know how you feel about over racing?

My high school coach was really big into that type of thinking. The only way he got us to buy into it was training like the race wasn't even coming and telling us he literally "doesn't give a shit about some stupid dual meet" all while focusing on peaking at the right time... Forfeiting actually might be a better idea just to save face, that happened several times as well.

@////????//// Thanks for the reply.

1) We are the 2nd or 3rd best team in our 8 team league. Basically, there is one team we cannot beat, one team we are competitive with, and 5 teams that we beat easily.

2) The distance squad is fairly small. We have 24 people total, with about 13 being dedicated runners and the rest are beginners or people just doing it to stay in shape.

3) The dual meets are typically on Tuesdays or Wednesdays.

I like that schedule, interesting that you suggest doing a tempo run after the dual meet. I've considered this, but I typically stick to two hard days a week, which in some cases are the dual meet and the invitational meet.

I also typically give my runners one day off every 14 days.

I've got to partially go with @My name is Lance, I would modify the events the kids are running. There is no harm in getting some distance kids involved in 200s or 400s. I would also have multiple mile "warm-ups". To that, I would also put some of my 800 guys in a 3200.

It really all depends on what system you are working on at that time and the goal of the training. If you don't know the answer to those, then you have concerns beyond over-racing and should let the kids do as they wish.

@Scooter, we are primarily working on aerobic development throughout the winter, that's why I'm not a huge fan of having them run 200's and 400's anaerobically. I don't really plan on doing much anaerobic work at all this winter, as I'd like them to peak in the late-spring.

Cue the "you're an idiot" posts.

Coach K wrote:

"You are wrong" is right. Typically I want my kids going all out on race day. They can do a tempo anytime, but meaningful racing only happens on meet day. There is nothing harder than racing and I want my athletes to give a maximum effort at our weekly meet. What's all the training for if not to test oneself on meet day?

"nothing is harder than racing" i think a lot of coaches would consider racing to be easy and training to be hard.

Big Dog, you apparently have underestimated the lack of knowledge by many high school track and cross country coaches about proper training, lol. Your schedule sounds ideal, unfortunately it is not the reality for the team I coach. A lot of the programs in my state have a much heavier indoor and outdoor racing schedule. For example, we have 15 indoor meets scheduled.

Anyway, I have sat down with the head coach and articulated my philosophy at the beginning of the year, but I think I may need to do so again. That's good advice.

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

@Scooter, we are primarily working on aerobic development throughout the winter, that's why I'm not a huge fan of having them run 200's and 400's anaerobically. I don't really plan on doing much anaerobic work at all this winter, as I'd like them to peak in the late-spring.

Cue the "you're an idiot" posts.

200s and 400s have nothing to do with when you peak. You should practice top end speed ALL YEAR LONG. You don't sound like you entirely know what you're doing. You should never neglect any part of your fitness for more than a week or so.

ha! I don't think you're an idiot, but I disagree with the thinking that racing or training by running 200/400/800s all out early in a season is bad. I used to be a pretty strict linear periodization guy, very Lydiardesque. I've come to realize that working long to short, i.e the traditional approach, doesn't have to be mutually exclusive with training short to long. If we're trying to improve RE & if we realize the athlete who can kick the last 400 fast with good mechanics has a better chance to win, why do we wait until late season to 'sharpen' by practicing sprinting? I don't necessarily believe 10 x 400 at 1600 goal pace is a good workout in January, but I think 1 X 200, 1-2 X 400, 1 X800, etc. at max effort is beneficial this time of the year. I don't buy into the idea that this makes an athlete peak too soon or burn out. I just don't see real evidence to corroborate that.

@kdsi It's pretty simple, really. Anaerobic running has a very short shelf-life. You can improve pretty rapidly for about 3-5 weeks off of it, but after that you tend to peter out. As a result, you would ideally have an anaerobic period about 4-5 weeks before your key event.

Now, I agree that practicing top end speed is important. That's why I have them do strides or speed development drills throughout the year. So for strides you would do 100-150 meters at mile or 800 meter pace, recover completely, and then run again. For speed development we do shorter stuff, like 30's, 40's and 50 meters run all-out. That's short enough where you don't accumulate lactic acid.

Running a 200 or a 400 all out is very anaerobic, which means it is much more difficult to recover from. It also creates a ton of lactic acid in your legs, which can take weeks to completely clear from the body. As a result, I don't like kids doing those types of races when their peak race is months away.

I feel for you, and see similar, but not that extreme schedules. I also see the opposite occur though, and observe athletes, who we would expect to perform better against our athletes in big meets, race sporadically and idiotically, presumably because they didn't learn how to race under different scenarios (knowing their coaches, it's a pattern, not related to holding out due to injury or some other reason). So it's a balancing act.

Best case scenario, gather your facts re: specific athlete training/performances, and have a sit down to nip it in the bud this year to ensure success for the program. Worst case, implement tactical racing advice, minimize events entered per dual meet, and explain to athletes that we train through the early races with adjustment to training plan in order to gain racing experience. But I am not a proponent of what some have said (verbalizing to athletes that certain meets don't matter, we don't care, we have to do them because the make us, etc.), because that creates animosity between the coaches, AD, athletes, parents, and you, where you would all be working together for the sake of the kids, not pitting each against the other. Not saying you are doing that, but others above have advised something to that effect.

SlipperyPete1340 wrote:

Running a 200 or a 400 all out is very anaerobic, which means it is much more difficult to recover from. It also creates a ton of lactic acid in your legs, which can take weeks to completely clear from the body.

You are clearly learning the ways of the long play, but you still have some to learn. Well done though, you didn't give yourself up until page 3. I give you 8/10.

Hi All,

Been coaching high school CC and Track for 25+ years.

We race our duel meets no matter what. Most of our duals and tris are on Wednesday and big meets on Saturdays. Here in AZ where the afternoon temps are over 100 degrees we still race it.

If we are meeting a team that is not very good we run to win, if this means ya gotta run fast then so be it. If we compete against a team that is good, we race.

This still gives you 2 days easy if needed. I have also had races two days before a big meet and we race it.

I do not agree with the whole tempo run stuff, teams that I know that do this , the coaches have no confidence in their kids or in their training. They are insecure in how they train their kids.

It also looks so bad when a team does this, when parents have driven a couple hours, taken off work to watch kids run. I think it does nothing to help promote CC just make the teams doing this look arrogant and unsportsman like.

We have beat teams that pull this shananigan, resting so their coach can run them hard afterwards or the morning of or for the big Sat. meet. Races are hard efforts and benefit my runners more that any thing I could throw at them.

When young coaches started coming in, the jogging- tempo problem started. I never see it really work in the end of the season for teams that do this.

I also see it with more coaches who never ran at a high level.

Just my two cents.

Monty