Teachers: Should you be paid based on performance?

No, this is not a great post. This is the same self excusing drivel that the teachers unions are constantly peddling along with the belief that we are underpaid and overworked. I make 92k after 14 years and am currently sitting at home on my computer at 2:52 on a thursday.

maji wrote:

It would work like this - the Board of Education says, for example, we want math scores for our 3rd graders to rise 5% within the next 5 years.

So that job is given to the principal to get 'er done. If he fails, he's out, and they get to bring in someone new to try.

What is so difficult to grasp about this?

Yeah. It's just like coaching.

The AD tells the track coach that his top 5 cross country runners have to average 5% faster at regionals each next year. If it works, your runners get faster each year. If you pay the coach an extra $5000 for meeting the goal, it will work even better. If the coach fails, you fire him and bring in a new coach who can meet the goals, or you dock his pay for not meeting goals.

no until investment bankers are paid based on theirs

Hell yes. Why should crap teachers be protected and good teachers unrewarded?

HAHA nice try. I call BS. What school district do you work for? No regular teacher makes that amount no matter what state you work at. Teacher salary amounts are public informaion and you can find that information online. All teachers in our schools make beween 32K-65K principas between 70K-85K, and our super intendent makes 90K. I live in Washington State which is one of the better paying states for teachers as well. In Montana the beggining teacher starts out at a ridiculous 28K. Can you imagine what this will be after taxes?

You are not a teacher and you do not make that amount of money, I guarantee that. If you were a teacher, you would not be bragging about it and supporting the bashing of teachers. Nice try though.

My mother was recently the district teacher of the year and was a finalist for state teacher of the year. She puts in over 70 hours a week and only takes off one month during the summer (but takes classes all summer long to develop her skills as a teacher, on her own dime), despite not being paid for 2 1/2 months worth of June-August. The fact that she makes the same amount as people with similar seniority that don't care at all about their jobs (a lot of teachers really don't care) is pretty sad. Teaching salaries absolutely should be merit based. A select few like my mother actually care enough to put forth their best effort regardless of pay, but many of the others would do a better job if the amount they were paid actually depended on it.

It depends- if I could choose my students- "hire" and "fire" them- then sure, pay me based on performance.

I have to take what I'm given.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Without actual criteria spelled out for performance this is a meaningless question. I can support the concept as a concept but translating that into a framework in which performance is measured consistently, fairly, and repeatably is very difficult.

"I would like the free market to determine how teachers are paid."

These are the best answers.

I second this. Great analogy

No, it is not a great post. It is an incredibly moronic post.

No it is not so difficult to base pay on the performance of the students. A teacher is paid to improve the performance of their students during the time that they are with that teacher. That is actually fairly simple to measure. Indeed, it is easier to measure than is the performance of most professions.

And the apple pie analogy - oh please. Cute, but lame beyond belief.

Wow, nice post.

Here's what I'd like to see:

1) Pay teachers of core subjects the most money. They are most on-the-hook for student performance. Wellness? Give me a break. Art, music, "Gifted" and so on? Well worth an investment but not as challenging nor as results-dependent as the core subjects of math, science, English, and social studies. (And I'd certainly place Special Ed in the same category as the core subjects teachers.)

2) Stop paying based solely on longevity. Step raises are nice; all I have to do to get one is to survive another year. However, shouldn't those who are actively improving themselves get paid more? Or shouldn't those who are teaching the toughest classes get paid more?

3) Stop thinking that multiple-guess tests can adequately assess the quality of instruction or student learning. Assessing isn't the problem; the types of assessments the education industry has sold us is the problem. Create assessments that reflect the academic skills that students really ought to be able to demonstrate in order to gain a diploma from an accredited high school, and I'll buy in totally. I've yet to see one nor to hear of one.

Oh no, I forgot an s on teachers when I was typing a quick response on an anonymous message board. I must not only be a bad teacher, but also a bad human being and probably a half-wit.

really?! wrote:

mstars wrote:

As a teacher, I also think that teacher who mail it in or do a shitty job should be disciplined and/or helped to improve and if they don't then they should be let go.

I hope you're more coherent when communicating with your students in French. God help them.

I always hear that we need to weed out the bad ones, but, in many respects, we do. Not everyone who starts an ed. program finishes, and not everyone who finishes gets a job, and not everyone who gets a jog gets tenure.

Even so, some districts have incestuous hiring practices, and some areas, like advanced math and physics, chronically have a shortage of highly qualified applicants.

I say, fix the recruitment problems in critical areas, like physics. The State governments can easily pay physics and advanced math teacher bonuses, outside of the jurisdiction of the unions.

Johnny Rotten was right on the money about paying core subject teachers more. There is no way the business teacher who sits behind a desk and lets Mavis Beacon do their job is working anywhere near as hard as the math teacher who is sweating out his students taking yet another state exam.

Teachers can be evaluated. Let students evaluate teachers after they graduate from college. When the student is in the teacher's class, they know little or nothing. After they had 4 years to feel the impact of teacher xyz, they can do a legit evaluation. Yes, this would be difficult to collect the data, but in the end, it would pay huge dividends.

I am honestly one of the best teachers you would ever meet. No, really. I put in an incredible amount of time outside of the classroom, my students love me, and I get some of the best test scores in my state year after year (in a school that struggles on the whole).

You should absolutely pay me based on my performance. That way I wouldn't make the same lousy salary that the PE teachers do for sitting on a bench all day and rolling a ball out to a bunch of kids.

No, it is not a great post. It is an incredibly moronic post.

No it is not so difficult to base pay on the performance of the students. A teacher is paid to improve the performance of their students during the time that they are with that teacher. That is actually fairly simple to measure. Indeed, it is easier to measure than is the performance of most professions.

And the apple pie analogy - oh please. Cute, but lame beyond belief.

It is a great post and the perfect analogy. I'm a teacher. Most of the poorer students come into school carrying a lot of baggage. Most do not come from decent, stable homes. I can't turn them away.

When a kid say that she's going to drop out anyway I cannot motivate them. They go home to an unsporting environment. The parent (yes parent not parents) doesn't really care about the kid.

The "family" doesn't value education, it's sad but out of our control.

Should doctors pay be based on how healthy their patients are? Same difference. Teachers teach, doctors treat, but nobody can make a student learn or an obese patient lose weight.

A doctor can't lose their license without some sort of peer review, and neither should a teacher. Yet, a Doctor's pay is somewhat tied to their performance since the number of patients they treat is somewhat related to how many patients like them.

The whole question of performance-based pay is quite a red herring and rather moronic obsession here in the U. S. The real problem is in attracting greater educated and gifted teachers from the beginning of their careers. Do doctors have a performance based pay? Well..no, unless you include the level of prestige/pay levels of the hospitals they are hired by. Yet if they end up doing a double breast implant on a man with a broken arm it is suffice to say that they will be ousted due to their performaance.Good quality is of the essence right from the get-go in the medical field..why not education?

Would you see certain doctors put away in a union's "rubber room" where they can play cards all day with other doctors that are effectively useless and even dangerous to their patients(i.e. students) well being?... No!.. you don't have this with the medical community but yet you have it everywhere within the educational institutions of the country.

If you are an experienced educator with deep qualifications and smarts you will be probably working at a lucrative prep school somewhere already. THERE is already performance based pay. We must ask instead, why is it that the teachers coming into the public system are already largely set up for failure. There are GOOD teachers but they are doing this in spite of a system that works against them. There are so many poor classrooms out there because the average person doesn't give a sh'' about the society as a whole and is only concerned about their own well-being. Thats why there is not a big fight for more quality in education, and it is the same reason parents/larger public are quick to pile the blame on other's (i.e.: teachers). If people want more accountability in their child's upbringing they can begin by pointing the fingers...at.......themselves. the attitudes are already starting to change though because when you have an underclass that grows too big you begin to understand that a quality education secures a safe society as well as a smart one.

I have taught in Hong Kong for the past 7 years in their public school system after leaving back home. Believe me the average kid in the lower level schools have parents that tell their children to always respect the teachers and everything they say to a nauseating degree. It is afterall a confucian background. But on some level it works . I am paid over 100 grand a year US after tax and work with consumate professional that put me to shame in terms of dedication . Hong Kong is ranked #1-#3 on math /literacy scores in the worlsd consistantly. Not ONLY because of the schools. Its just the family takes education seriously. My 2 ..maybe 3 cents