critique my super simple training plan

asdfgh wrote:

The 17.25 in an indoor race with spikes is a very different story when comparing it on a tempo run done normally outside and hopefully, not with spikes, don´t you get it huh..

So YOU TOO are a clown.

Just got back to this thread, and see I need to rub a few more of your errors in.

First, your understanding of when he ran his 20-minute tempo relative to the 18:50 5k was wrong. I already cleared that up for you on page 1 (after you wouldn't listen to the first guy that tried to help you). Clown.

Second, minor but funny, assumption of spikes was clearly wrong. Clown.

Third, for a 18:50 5k, Daniels Running Formula assigns about a 53.5 VDOT, which recommends a 6:29 pace for a 20-minute tempo/threshold run. If anything, the OP was a little on the slow side, but I certainly wouldn't force the pace if he felt it was a good effort. You were wrong on the best pace for a 20-minute tempo, too. Clown.

Fourth, longer tempo runs are of course slower (40 minutes would be ~14 sec/mi slower than 6:29, and 60 minutes would be ~24 sec/mi slower than 6:29). But again, the OP is doing 3-mile tempo runs.

Fifth, Daniels recommends limiting tempo volume to 10% of weekly mileage. Based on the training the OP described, your insistence of much longer tempo runs certainly seems inapporopriate. A 40-minute tempo at sub 7 pace would be around 6 miles. Certainly doesn't sound like the OP was doing 60+ mpw at the time. 20-minutes for a tempo sounds reasonable to me. Clown.

Finally, if you are going to insult Daniels or claim that his recommendations are somehow "wrong", please be sure to share with us your credentials - either your accomplishments or the runners coached under your system. That's helpful to, you know, weed out BS artists. The fomer Stanford teams, and current Oregon teams heavily use Daniels Running formula guidelines for their training. They achieved reasonable results under DRF. Clown.

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OP - keep it up! My guess is that as you stay consistent, you'll do two things naturally: 1.) lengthen your easy jogs (which it sounds like you've already started doing over the last 6 weeks); and 2.) as your condition continues to improve over several weeks, the pace of some of your jogs will naturally progress into more tradional "easy" paces. You won't have to force either of these, they will natually happen as you adapt to your current training load and feel "good". You'll also probably be hungry to race frequently, which is great.

If this is the system that will keep you running every day for the next several months or years, then it sounds great to me. Your races are going to give you an injection of VO2max stimulus. Working in a long run is another option, but isn't necessary, and can certainly be detrimental if you make it too long like many do.

Anyway, good stuff! Keep us updated on your progres!

Hey are you married to Daniels?

His formula is not the law on distance running, you ignoramus...

nozemo wrote:

Hey are you married to Daniels?

His formula is not the law on distance running, you ignoramus...

Nope. Obviously not the law. But it does have much more substance than the clown claiming the OP's tempos were way too fast, and insulting other posters.

It quantifies everything being discussed in this thread, so was perfect to put some numbers to the discussion.

I'm happy to discuss Daniels, Lydiard, Vigil, Canova, Hudson, McMillan, Lananna, Mahon, and Hadd (see Lydiard). None of those have written anything that would agree with the claims the guy was making. I just happened to use Daniels for my argument.

Ignoramus? Pretty strong words. Are you the clown posting earlier?

No, I´ve read the thread, and explained why OP is running too fast his tempos, clown.

IT DOESN`T MATTER IF YOU RUN SHORT TEMPO, too fast is too fast You want to start a tempo rather slowly to start the aerobic metabolism. The muscles steady state takes about 10minutes to reach. And a 20minute tempo is not close to optimal to deplete most of your intermediate-some of FG fibers. A 40min at the right intensity and lnger ones even a bit slower is what to progress, clown.

The OP is obviously racing his tempos to get close enough (that´s too fast in this case) his track times, and is doing it outside as he told to us. Don´t you get that these calculators based on track times is always faster than optimal, because you won´t run your tempos on track, hopefully. The calculators are based on an assumption that you always have STANDARD surfaces under you, and you won´t when running outside vs. track race times, clown.

The other poster was right about Daniels. By tempo run he means a 20minutes at 88-92% of MHR at xx-pace. The pace should be forgotten because it´s almost always too fast. As he wrote in his book; "Being at the same intensity doesn´t always mean being at the same speed (due to headwinds, hills, poor footing...)" The HR of a tempo is about right, but since you are running that from the start of the tempo, you build high acidity in your muscles if you try to reach that from the start. The muscle acidity and the blood acidity is not the same thing. Muscle goes much more acidic than the blood will show to you, until the steady state in the muscle is reached. You should start a bit slower that what the HR should be later on the run. And as I´ve said earlier the 20min tempo won´t deplete your FOG+FG fibers as good as a longer run will do. That´s the goal of the tempo run, among training the lactate clearance. Start the aerobic engine, run at optimal intensity, go a good amount of time without high lactates, clown.

This is hilarious being posted in a thread about a SUPER SIMPLE TRAINING PLAN.

Isn't the goal of a tempo run to teach the ST fibers to use lactate as fuel and make the FOG fibers more aerobic?What is getting depleted?

And as I´ve said earlier the 20min tempo won´t deplete your FOG+FG fibers as good as a longer run will do. That´s the goal of the tempo run, among training the lactate clearance.

[quote]joetheplubmer wrote:

Isn't the goal of a tempo run to teach the ST fibers to use lactate as fuel and make the FOG fibers more aerobic?[quote]

Yes, that´s exactly what I´ve told earlier, last time in the end of my last post; And as I´ve said earlier the 20min tempo won´t deplete your FOG+FG fibers as good as a longer run will do. That´s the goal of the tempo run, among training the lactate clearance."

Earlier I wrote; "by a tempo you try to teach them to act more aerobic. Also the lactate clearance by mainly the slow twitch fibers are trained during a tempo run"

Other words, you increase your endurance at higher intensity.

But it shouldn´t be done by training your aerobic power like this guy who run 17.25 in a race, track, and ran his last tempo 18.5o OUTSIDE. That´s simply too close to an oll out effort, when done in a training run and on the roads. In a race, track or roads, you can always run much faster than you could do in training run.

That´s not the goal of a tempo run.

unicyclemichael wrote:

Okay going running now. Try not say too many mean things to eachother.

Tell us your age.

This one guy above says you're a young guy and thus liable to do your tempos too fast.

asdfgh wrote:

Try to chill out, clown.

Um, you're the guy who plastered the thread with a 10-message tantrum. Who's not chilled?

asdfgh wrote:

I´m smarter than you. So you should change your nickname, idiot.

Sure you are. Sure you are. Whatever makes you feel better. Are you still calling names? I thought you wanted to chill out?

asdfgh wrote:

About McMillan, the paces are all wrong. Simply too fast. Calculators are always too optimistic. They assume that you do all of your training on track with spikes on, if you use track times as a basis for the calculation.

McMillan assumes that you do your tempos on the track with spikes on? Sorry, but no. But whatever makes you feel better about your weak training paces...

Funny that you keep calling everyone else here a clown. You know, most times the man who thinks he's surrounded by idiots is actually the one with a problem. Think about that much?

the smartest letsrunner wrote:

Tell us your age.

This one guy above says you're a young guy and thus liable to do your tempos too fast.

Incorrect.

I wrote "Too fast, especially for a young guy without proper endurance (lactate accumulates very quickly)."

Later I made it clear that the point wasn´t his age, but his obvious lack of proper endurance (as normally is in the case of young runners, BUT could be the same situation with older ones IF THERE´S NO PROPER ENDURANCE):

I wrote: "He didn´t thell his age, but you can see that he has not proper base behind him, no matter is he 23 or 19 years old" OR MORE, I would add. The endurance is what matters.

SO FORGET THE NAGGING ABOUT HIS AGE, finally.

So I just looked at the race result website and I seemed to have been DQed for running only 24 laps. sunnuvabich lap counter clearly told me I had 2 laps to go when I actually had three. BUMMER.

Soooo, I actually raced a 17:25 3 miler. Which means, that 18:50 tempo I did was probably too fast, BUT it was the one tempo I did on the treadmill, so it might have been a bit off. I'll do another in a couple days.

I'm 26 by the way. Used to train around 50-70 miles a week mostly at 7min pace. XC best was 27:17. Haven't really had a good build up in the last couple years tho. find I can't really handle that kind of running any more.

unicyclemichael wrote:

So I just looked at the race result website and I seemed to have been DQed for running only 24 laps. sunnuvabich lap counter clearly told me I had 2 laps to go when I actually had three. BUMMER.

Soooo, I actually raced a 17:25 3 miler. Which means, that 18:50 tempo I did was probably too fast, BUT it was the one tempo I did on the treadmill, so it might have been a bit off. I'll do another in a couple days.

I'm 26 by the way. Used to train around 50-70 miles a week mostly at 7min pace. XC best was 27:17. Haven't really had a good build up in the last couple years tho. find I can't really handle that kind of running any more.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. sorry about your race, but in the midst of this hilarious thread, this post is friggin' legen...... DARY!

Did another 5k treadmill tempo, this one in 18:30. I guess the last one was at zero incline. This time i tried to put it up to 1 a bunch of times, but it kept resetting after a minute so I gave up. Whatever. 18:30 does sound too fast, but it felt fine, wasn't tying up at all and felt like I could have kept going for at least anohter couple of miles. (8k to 10k pace?)

Milage will be in high 30's this week (after 6-8 tomorrow am). I also played a bunch of pick up basketball, which made me get sore and run less. Next 5k in a week, outdoors, certified course.

Update. Ran the 5k last week, it was a dissaster. Windy, snowing, no traction, course was way long. Whatever, I wore the bib from my previous race.

Haven't done a tempo run this week but am going to race a 10 miler on Saturday. It will be my longest run so far, haven't decided on a race strategy. Thoughts?

This week has been good, the pace of my six mile runs seems to be slowly getting faster.

Probably will race some more 5ks in April.

No one cares about my thread since all those "piss off, you" guys stopped posting. Oh well.

Did a 10 mile race yesterday in 1:02:40. Surprised myself by running neg splits and a sub 6 last mile. I didn't think my training would apply well to a 10 miler.

Next race won't be until April, so back to the 5 day cycle and the golf course for me.

Your training plan sounds pretty good. I think a lot of people try to really complicate training for no reason. Having a tempo run be part of your 5 day cycle is great, that is probably the best thing for you. It does sound like you are going a little fast.

You said you are probably doing it 8k-10k pace but it really should be closer to 10 mile race pace. Given your recent 10 miler, which was at 6:15 pace. I'd say right now your tempo pace should be just under that. Say, 6:10 pace = 19:20.

Also, since your 17:25 5k was actually a 3 miler, that puts that 5k at just over 18 minutes. You should be able to run a bit faster now (that race was a few weeks ago right?). Let's say 17:45, I generally say add 30-40 seconds per mile to get a good tempo pace. So add 1:30-2:00 and you've got 19:15-19:45.

From those two races I'd say your tempo run should be low-19's right now, your 18:30 definitely sounds too fast. But, tempo is really all about effort, so a good way to check your tempo is to do the 5k tempo, take a 10 minute rest, and do it again. This is a great way to do tempos when you get some more miles under your belt in the current training. For now just try it as a test. If your tempo pace is correct you should be able to do the 2nd 5k in about the same time while still feeling good (not feeling like you are really pushing it).

My only advice, outside the tempo business, is to obviously keep building up your easy mileage, and throw in an alternating long run and hill workout on day 2 or 3 of each cycle.

well I started a new job, got sick in Mexico and did some spotty training for a few weeks, but now I'm back doing the same old. I just ran a 37:20 10k. Felt pretty controled. Ready to finally break 18 now.

Tried for a while before I got sick to do some longer faster running but now I'm just back doing 50 or so min at jogging pace. I haven't timed my last couple tempo runs.

Any one still folowing me?