Any other college runners feel like they race every morning????

If I had to do it all over again, I would've run my hard runs harder and my easy runs easier. I tended to get caught up in the pace of whoever was feeling especially good that day, and that was a mistake.

Now I run my easy runs at 8:00 or even 8:30 pace. But I really focus on a faster pace on the harder days. I am not nearly as worn down as I once was.

I ran in the late 70's and early 80's and I ran almost all of my mileage at sub 6 min. pace and that is what felt comfortable to me and I had success off of that. Anything slower than about 6:15 pace was very uncomfortable to me and I would get sore for the next days run. I truly felt like I was recovering at 5:50 pace. That was averaging only about 65 miles a week however and when I upped my mileage to about 85 a week, I still did all of my running under 6 min. pace and I burned out. I think every runner neeeds to figure out what works best for them and that will vary depending on how much mileage they are doing, are they in season or out of season,etc. There are runners that can and do most of their running at sub 6 min. pace, but most runners can't, especially if they are doing higher mileage. Your coach obviously doesn't believe in the individualized approach to training and that is too bad. You need to go somewhere where there is more flexibility in the way everyone on the team trains.

Haile Gebreselassie runs most of his mileage at 6-6:15/mi and his recovery runs in excess of 7min pace.

There are other runners, such as Joaquim Cruz or El Guerrouj, that run the majority of their mileage fast (ie, 3:20/km) but look at who they are.

And yet again, on the other hand, Renato Canova has 3:30 1500m runners who will run for 3hrs at 9min/mi for active recovery.

If you wanted to make a very general ball park figure, take your 5km per/mi pace, add 2min for conditioning pace, and add another minute for recovery pace. That fits in with what guys like Geb and Tergat run.

college runner wrote:

So my college coach has the approach long slow distace makes long slow distance runners.

I hate that phrase -- it doesn't take into account the fact that runs over very long durations will work other energy systems and that, perhaps more applicably, there is a time and place for everything.

When we do recovery runs, or easy days, what ever you want to call it, I have my kids run at a comfortable pace. If you are running faster than comfortable, then you are obviously not recovering. On the same token, if you are running too slow, it also is not comfortable, and therefore not recovery. When I run too slow I feel overly sluggish and I get tired very quickly.

At a High School at 6000ft alt. my varisty boys find comfortable at 7;15 - 7:45 pace. ANything slower or faster and they are hurting. My varsity girls are between 8:00 and 8:45.

For me I am old and fat now(compared to college days). I notice at 8:00 pace i could run 20-30 miles pretty easy, yet when I go Faster than 7:30 or slower than 8:30, I can't go too much further than 15 miles. ( note; my kids don't run that far).

Anywho food for thought.

That is odd... wrote:

Also, there is no reason for a D1 runner to be running over 7 min pace unless he is injured. You can easily recover running 6:15 - 6:30.

Quite frankly, you don't know what the heck you are talking about.

You have no idea what other people need to recover. Focusing on pace on recovery days is noe of the moe inane concepts I've heard related to training. If you think pace on recovery days matters, never coach. Weldon runs his easy days at time 8:00 or slower per mile. The watch is only useful on a recovery day for seeing how far you've run.

But you keep plugging away at 6:00 pace and "recovering." someone who's done it more intelligently will feed you your lunch in the next race.

Suggestion wrote:But you keep plugging away at 6:00 pace and "recovering." someone who's done it more intelligently will feed you your lunch in the next race.

Hahahaha, okay my friend, I am no longer racing, but you keep wearing your high school jersey with pride.

I will cherish what I have earned from working hard during my time.

I am not about to argue this any further with a bunch of slowpokes.

Keep trying for that sub-15 5k, you might get there some day.

I feel for you because I've been in a similar situation. You are obviously frustrated and you have good reason to be. If you've tried speaking with your coach one on one and approaching him in a humble and respectful manner and he's still forcing your "recovery" pace to be faster than you're comfortable with then you've got to make some big desicions. If you want to stay in this program then you'll have to find a mental strategy to get over what you've already determined to be a negative thing (running too fast on easy days). My advice to you is to bring the pace down as slow as possible, never lead the group and always be at the back. On workout days, still don't be the hero and try to gain as much strength and control as possible. It sounds kind of strange, but really go inside yourself and listen to your body. Really you don't have much choice, unless you want to quit the team. Try to stay positive and never tell yourself you can't do well. Remember that lots of strong runners train fast everyday, even though it might not be your personal choice of training methods. Telling yourself its killing you will cause it to be worse than it actually is. Good Luck to you.

I always find it interesting when people say they "hurt" from running too slow. I think the only thing that gets hurt is your ego when on-lookers see you running that slow.

I am still waiting for some science supporting the claim that running too slow "hurts" one's performance.

From my observation, runners that can get away with running 5:45 minute/mile pace on their easy days usually are the low milege types that rely on their above average natural speed.

Yes these runners are successful, much more than I, but it only makes me wonder how much better they could be if they altered their easy runs. For example, instead of a 8-9 mile run at 5:50 pace, why not try a 15-16 mile run at 8 minute pace?

I think the reason why is merely ego. Even if they knew by doing this only a few days a week on easy days that they could improve, many would not be able to overcome the mental stigma of "jogging" at 8 minute pace.

That is what makes the runner competitive I guess, but it is all the more reason to need a good coach to focus that competitive drive.

spokompton wrote:

I always find it interesting when people say they "hurt" from running too slow. I think the only thing that gets hurt is your ego when on-lookers see you running that slow.

I am still waiting for some science supporting the claim that running too slow "hurts" one's performance.

I guess I am curious as to how you think you know if someone is hurting or not when they run slow. There doesn't need to be scientific proof, it is just a feeling that some people have. I know how I felt at certain paces and that is all that matters. Every runner is different and some people love the feeling of running nice and easy and for some, it is uncomfortable. Ego has nothing to do with it. I would occasionally run with some of the runners on the women's team at 7 min. pace and it was absolutely painful for me and I felt horrible the next day. Other runners, some much better than me, could run that pace or slower and it felt good to them. To each his own, but to doubt someone's assertion that a certain pace feels painful to them is showing your own ego, since you obviously think you know how everyone else feels.

I have read that it occurs because those runners lack certain aerobic enzymes that are produced by running at very low HRs. But, to what level that's accurate, I don't know.

The above article is pretty convincing that hard/easy isn't the only way to go. I have to say, though, that I believe this approach may lead to unbelievable short-term gains if applied very carefully, and exactly as prescribed. I believe it is risky, however, and if the paces are too fast some days, the chance for breakdown looms ever closer. You don't recover enough for the next day. Then the next day comes and you try to run too fast again, and a season-long downslide begins.

My own bias is to mix speeds up, never killing yourself, but always feeling comfortably tired.

Obviously you haven't thought about this very much. If a 14:30 5k runner, who is not used to running slow, all of a sudden goes from 6:15 pace to 7:30 pace what do you think would happen to his stride? Do you think that might make him uncomfortable? You could have argued that he would eventually get used to it and longterm it would be beneficial, and you may have been right, but that was not your argument.

Running slow is not always the best way to go, and neither is running fast. There's more than one way to the top - find your way and stick with it. I can provide scores of examples of guys who succeeded by running hard nearly every day, and just as many of guys who succeeded by crawling around at a pedestrian pace. I find nothing more annoying, however, then fairly mediocre runners, or even downright slow runners, endlessly sprouting off about how easy days should be easy days. Perhaps they should, but at recognize that there are people out there who can run 6:20 pace or whatever and still call it easy. Furthermore, running may be a science, but racing isn't.

one thing i haven't seen on here is the MENTAL discipline that you need to run significantly slower then what you feel comfortable at, for a recovery pace.

a previous post mentioned doing this and i think most runners can not do this because it is too mentally demanding.

if you are a 14-18 min 5ker on a college team or so and can never run slower then 7 or so per mile pace for your 10 miler go out and take your watch and run 9 minute miles for 15-20 miles. what most are unable to do is to slow down and allow themselves to belive that you dont have to run fast/hard every day to get better. the mental discipline gained from training your mind that it is ok to run 9 min miles on an easy day will be 100 times more advantageous then the "easy" run of 10 miles at 6 min pace.

Does it really "hurt"?!? "Absolutely painful", c'mon. How come it isn't absolutely painful for the droves of East Africans that run slower than 7 minute pace on their easy days?

It should be more painful for someone of their caliber to slow to that pace, but they do not seem to be affected.

The whole logic behind this bothers me, I'm sorry. If someone is used to bench pressing 3 sets of 135 lbs., 20 times per set, will reducing the weight, or any other aspect of the effort (i.e. reps, sets), cause more pain for that person? I doubt it, but maybe some say it does.

If you said you felt horrible after running 7 minute pace the day before, something else was the cause. I might be able to buy the "sluggish" feeling during the effort, but feeling crappy the next day from such a slow effort, you can't be serious.

exactly my point! Well put.

I'm at a division one college...we do 3 workouts a week (or two and a race) saturdays is a hardworkout/race...sunday is a long run (goal average pace is 6:15) monday is a hard workout...then our "recovery" day is at the slowest 6:30ish. 6:30ish is the point for us where your legs are getting a decent amount of turnover and an efficent stride, but its not that 7:30 pace where you are throwing a tenisball around and board out of your mind. I've been on campus for over a month and taken one 'day off" which was 4 miles at 7:30ish pace and i feel absolutly great. I like the quote "I like running because it is a challenge. If you run hard, there is pain--and you got to work your way through the pain. You know, lately all you hear is "Don't overdo it" and "don't push yourself." Well I think that is a lot of bull. If you push the human body it will respond" Take it as you will...but i know how my body feels and i'm not gonna physically burn out from this set of training.

This guy is spot on. The 15min 5k get put out there alot on this board, but I feel like the reasoning behind this is solid . This is really the line between a talented 20 something male how run hard, or alot, and a talented 20 something who runs properly - hard, alot, easy, with proper workout pace, proper tempo paces, proper long run paces, etc... I have spent the vast magority of my 10+ year running career as a 16:30 to 15:30 5Ker, save for one brief shining season where I barely hit that elusive sub 15. In that time I have found just about every possible way to run 15:30. 40-60 miles a week at 6:30 pace chasing faster runners and doing every workout as fast as you can that day will get you there. So will running 90-110 miles per week at 7:30 pace with nothing but tempos and long intervals. However, the only thing that ever got me to that magic sub 15 was doing everything - runing 90 miles a week, some at 6:30, some at 7:30, some at 8:30, some at 4:30. I even took some day totally off. You really need to run all the paces, work all the system (even the ones for jogging), and really recover when you need to.

I'm sure I'll be accused of making s*** up, and I don't feel like googling my name and picking out my race results, but if you really feel I'm bulls***ing go to the pausatf website and look for the name that is very similar to my screen name in the early 2005 results. Google it and I'm sure you'll find all kinds of times for me.

I have thought about it, thank you for noticing. I'm pretty sure Geb can handle a 14:30 5k and some how his form doesn't melt away by logging many easy miles slower than 7 minute pace.

I agree that pounding everyday may work great for many. But I bet that most of these 14:30 5k DI college guys you refer to do not exceed 100 miles per week. And I did point that out.

In my opinion, you can become really good by nailing 5:50 miles for your 70 miles per week, you just won't reach your fullest potential.

Ergo said it best.