Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

whoopie pie wrote:

* .414 was the number for Bird's 3P% for that stretch. Yes, looking at the numbers it's hard to say who you would rather have on your team in their prime.

Thanks for cleaning up my mess. I also got Jordan's FT% slightly wrong----it was .848....

Basket Baller wrote:

Wow, Bird's numbers are superior for that period of time. Bird also won the head to head match ups.

The numbers were great for Bird. But during that stretch he had a VASTLY superior surrounding cast to as compared to Jordan's Bulls so I think the head to head match ups don't mean much of anything. Celtics had a better team. Also, Jordan was great then but made further improvements, especially to his jump shot as his career moved along. Bird had injuries so maybe his peak years could have extended further but we don't really know. Jordan maintained a high level of production throughout his entire career with the Bulls. And as mentioned, had the additional skill of being better on defense as well.

oldenuff wrote:

It has always been my understanding that to be considered the greatest NBA player of all time, a player would have to play defense as well.

The best assessment I ever heard about Larry Bird's defensive ability came from one of his opponents, Chuck "The Rifleman" Person: "As long as Larry Bird is in the NBA, I'll only be the 2nd worst defensive player in the league."

Well, listening to what Chuck Person SAYS vs SEEING what Chuck Person DID could be 2 totally different things.

Larry Bird TORCHED Person before Bird's back was shot. And Person did NOT do likewise (before Bird's back was shot).

I personally would not choose to use the physically diminished version of a player to place value on that player from a historical standpoint. If I did, then Kevin Willis's recollection of Kareem circa 1988 should tell us what we need to remember about Kareem... OR any number of fatally flawed 2-guards could write the epitaph on Michael Jordan by describing him as a winded ball hog who couldn't shoot or jump high. I know I wouldn't do that to Kareem or MJ. I would be stupidly lying to myself.

It would be interesting to know WHEN Person made that comment. If he made in in 1991, he's probably closer to the truth than any Bird fanatic wants to believe. But Larry Bird was shot then. I don't think that's the Larry Bird anyone is talking about when they say that Bird was a great player.

If Person made that comment prior to, say, 1991-----then Chuck is just flat out delusional (which always has been a strong possibility regardless).

yeah and... wrote:

[quote]Basket Baller wrote:

Wow, Bird's numbers are superior for that period of time. Bird also won the head to head match ups.

The numbers were great for Bird. But during that stretch he had a VASTLY superior surrounding cast to as compared to Jordan's Bulls so I think the head to head match ups don't mean much of anything. Celtics had a better team. quote]

Just to be clear---those stats were NOT from head to head Celtic/ Bulls matchups. They were Jordan's & Bird's numbers VS the league during the portion of Bird's prime that coincided with Jordan's playing career.

I know that. I was referencing the comment about how Bird won the head to head match ups (assuming it meant head to head with the Bulls and Celtics). I realize the stats were against all teams...

ShabaDoo wrote:

OR any number of fatally flawed 2-guards could write the epitaph on Michael Jordan by describing him as a winded ball hog who couldn't shoot or jump high.

And by that I meant to add: 'Jordan circa 2002'.

Here's Larry Bird head to head VS Chuck Person before Bird's double heel surgery, which pre-dates his back problems (everybody old enough remembers Bird missing 59 games his last 2 years ('91 & '92) with back issues that forced him to lay down in front of his bench between playing minutes during NBA games. I couldn't pick socks up without holding onto something with a bad back.

-------Bird------Person

Games---10---------10

PPG-----29.4-------16.5

RPG-----10.8--------7.0

APG------6.0--------3.7

SPG------2.1--------1.3

BPG------1.0--------0.1

TO/game--3.7--------2.0

FG%-----.536-------.423

3ptFG%--.541-------.333

FT%-----.948-------.750

I don't know, Chuck. Larry scored 12.9 more ppg and shot 113 points higher (208 points higher from beyond the arc)... And Bird had 10xs as many blocks.

Person, BTW, did average 35.5 minutes per game. So it was HIM in there getting lit up.

Here's Larry Bird in 20 career head to head games VS Chuck Person. This includes the 10 games prior to the injuries/ surgeries and the 10 games while Bird was physically diminished.

----------Bird----------Person

Games------20-------------20

PPG-------25.6-----------16.2

RPG-------10.0------------5.4

APG--------6.9------------3.5

SPG--------1.5------------0.9

BPG--------0.8------------0.3

TO/game----3.3------------1.8

FG%-------.482-----------.428

3ptFG%----.377-----------.347

FT%-------.915-----------.703

I'm still not seeing what Chuck Person was saying.

Here is a 5-game playoff series in 1991. The Celtics would win this series 3-2, but Larry Bird was shot. He would not even play 2 days later in Game One of the Eastern Conference Semis VS Detroit.

Bird couldn't shoot like he used to most nights and he probably couldn't guard anybody at this point. If Chuck Connors Person made his 'quote' about Bird's defense around the time of this 5-game playoff series, Chuck was probably right. But to use a quote that was probably made when Bird was shot---and try to define Larry Bird's defensive value/ contributions historically with it---would be a mistake. JMO.

----------Bird--------Person

Games------5------------5

PPG-------20.8---------26.0

RPG--------8.4----------5.6

APG--------8.6----------3.2

SPG--------1.2----------1.0

BPG--------0.4----------0.0

TO/game----3.0----------2.0

FG%-------.429---------.533

3ptFG%----.071---------.548

FT%-------.886---------.810

It might be interesting to look at some Dominique Wilkins/ Michael Jordan matchups.

These are the head to head matchup results when their teams played each other for 'Nique & MJ from 1985-86 through 1996-97. It's just cool to look at, as these guys must have eyed each other A LOT, whether it was in a game or a dunk contest.

---------Dominique------Jordan

Games-------39------------39

PPG--------30.2-----------31.7

RPG---------6.9------------7.3

APG---------2.9------------6.3

SPG---------1.4------------2.6

BPG---------0.5------------0.9

TO/game-----2.5------------3.3

FG%--------.483-----------.508

3PtFG%-----.333-----------.362

FT%--------.830-----------.854

Here's Bird and Jordan in head to head games from 1985-86 through 1991-92 (Jordan's 2nd year through Bird's final year).

---------Bird-------Jordan

Games-----22----------22

PPG-------28.0--------33.7

RPG--------8.1---------5.9

APG--------6.6---------5.9

SPG--------1.3---------2.7

BPG--------0.7---------1.0

TO/game----3.1---------2.7

FG%-------.515--------.503

3PtFG%----.463--------.324

FT%-------.908--------.852

and here are their numbers VS the league in 1984-85 (Basketball Reference only does head to head as far back as 1985-86)

---------Bird--------Jordan

Games-----80-----------82

PPG------28.7---------28.2

RPG------10.5----------6.5

APG-------6.6----------5.9

SPG-------1.6----------2.4

BPG-------1.2----------0.8

TO/game---3.1----------3.5

FG%------.522---------.515

3PtFG%---.427---------.173

FT%------.882---------.845

Newsflash: Both of these guys were GREAT and beyond many of the criticisms heaved their way in forums where hate rules and objectivity take a backseat to fanaticism. JMO.

Can we please put the 'LeBron is the greatest this or that/ better than Bird or Magic or Jordan' nonsense away now?

Dude doesn't do what the team needs him to do. He does what he wants to do instead-----which is to still play 25 feet from the basket with Bosh OUT.

After 9 years, LeBron FINALLY realizes he should play below the foul line. I think in 4 of these 5 Finals games he scored 15+ ppg in the paint. He had ZERO games like that in the Finals last year.

I agree he shouldn't be 30 feet from the basket, holding the ball. The proof is in the pudding.

YES. To the original question. Yes, Larry Bird IS the greatest NBA player of all-time. Or at least in the last 35 years.

Yes. The greatest is Bird. The disparity in winning when he was there VS not there ... the fact that he lit up everyone throughout his career, whether it was fellow Dream Teamers or All-NBA Defensive 1st and 2nd Teamers-------and this despite him NOT being a 'stats guy'. He rarely wanted stats. But when he did-----he did things like drop 60 on the Hawks on the road and Boston WON.

Jordan was a tremendous talent who had an incredible desire to win... But the truth is he didn't win unless a lot of specific people and situations were just right. 1st of all, Pippen HAD to be there to facilitate the offense. No Pippen, no winning. And no Phil Jackson, no winning. Jordan gets a lot of credit for 'makIng teammates better'. Well, he bullied teammates, but didn't win if Pippen wasn't there or Phil. When he was credited with 'showing the young Washington team how to win', they didn't win and an over the hill MJ still insisted on taking the most shots instead of having one of the young bucks he was supposedly 'showing how to win' do it. It's just his nature to hog. He never knew about TEAM, you can see it in how lousy he was as an executive. Not a clue. Yell at guys. Embarrass them. Bully them. But help them? Not on your life. Even his best teams never had to go through a powerful foe in the midst of their own prime run, like the Lakers, Celtics and Sixers had to with each other in the 80s. Nah. The Bulls just waited until all those teams got old. Then they dominated a league in the 90s full of All-Stars who, like Jordan, never won a darned thing in the 80s despite playing HALF of that decade. Only Olajuwon made an 80s Final of all of those 90s stars who came into the NBA in that '84-'86 era. How telling is it that Stockton and Malone----easily the 90s' top PF and PG----were together for something like 12 years before GETTING to a Finals? And that was the best the NBA could throw at those Bulls teams in the 90s. Jordan dominated NBA Lite in the 90s, waiting for better players in the 80s to get old. Larry Bird was one of those better players.

Joey Blerko wrote:

Just an absolute embarrassment of ignorance

OK. So you are ignorant.

Congratulations!

I don't know if Bird was the greatest ever... but he was greater than Jordan. MJ dominated his peers in the 90s. Problem is, he started playing during the 1984-85 season. In the 80s, Jordan's teams were 1-9 in the post season before Pippen came. With Pippen, Jordan's teams were 13-14 in the postseason-----making Jordan's 80s teams 14-23 in the postseason in the 80s. This is simply NOT impressive. It's sub-par. Face it, this is problematic for Jordan's GOAT case. He went to a lousy team, yes. But so did Bird. And Bird's team immediately starting winning 60+ games and advanced to the Conference Finals with the same crew who went 29-53 the year before. In the same span of the 80s that saw Jordan's teams win 14 playoff games----Bird's teams won FIFTY. And it's been already said here by others-----when Bird wasn't playing, the Celtics didn't win. So the crying about who Bird had as teammates doesn't wash. What were the Celtics in 1989 when Bird missed most of the year? 24-28 through 52 games? And even when Bird was physically shot, like in 1991? 29-5 with him to start the year, then 10-12 when Bird missed the next 22 games? The 1994 Bulls won 55 games without Jordan. Whose teammates needed whom least? It's obvious that Bird was more valuable. Jordan was a very entertaining player in the 80s. He was also a losing player without Pippen----and a losing player even WITH Pippen in the 80s postseason. There's no WAY Jordan was a greater player than Bird. I don't CARE what Jordan was a part of in the 90s. It does nothing to change how lacking his results were in the 80s VS greater players/ better winners in that era. I'd say the biggest knock against Bird would be longevity, or lack thereof. 13 total seasons. Only the 1st 9 of which were reasonably healthy. But Bird ran through brick walls to get loose balls in late January. Jordan had somebody else do that for him. I'm not holding it against Bird for being his team's alpha AND it's floor burn guy, too. Basketball Reference shows Bird VS Jordan in head to head games when Bird was healthy and Jordan wasn't a rookie: Bird's team was 9-1 (1986-88) and Bird outscored Jordan, out rebounded him, out assisted him and outshot him from the line, from 2 and from 3. Bird's teams were also 6-0 in the postseason VS Jordan's teams. Jordan outscored Bird in those playoff games, 39 ppg VS 27 ppg-----but Jordan MISSED more shots than Bird ATTEMPTED.

It's been 1 hell of a brainwashing and propaganda campaign carried out to prop Jordan up, frankly. Bottom line: healthy Bird > Jordan. Personal stats-wise it's at least close, but results/ team impact-wise-----no. That's Bird in a landslide. And Jordan bullying a pack of talented players in the 90s who also did nothing in the 80s doesn't fix it.