I love this whole "Bird could never play in this era" crap. The guy averaged 24/10/6 in one of the most competitive eras the league has ever seen. If Larry Bird was in his prime right now and given all of the advantages today's players have (nutrition, training, etc) he would still put up those numbers.
atownrunnin wrote:
I love this whole "Bird could never play in this era" crap. The guy averaged 24/10/6 in one of the most competitive eras the league has ever seen. If Larry Bird was in his prime right now and given all of the advantages today's players have (nutrition, training, etc) he would still put up those numbers.
Larry Bird in today's NBA would be the weakest, slowest, whitest guy in the league with absolutely the smallest vertical leap! How the heck do you think he could compete?!?
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True Dat wrote:
atownrunnin wrote:I love this whole "Bird could never play in this era" crap. The guy averaged 24/10/6 in one of the most competitive eras the league has ever seen. If Larry Bird was in his prime right now and given all of the advantages today's players have (nutrition, training, etc) he would still put up those numbers.
Larry Bird in today's NBA would be the weakest, slowest, whitest guy in the league with absolutely the smallest vertical leap! How the heck do you think he could compete?!?
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Oh, yeah, Larry's slow, weak, etc. Why do people always say that? Larry wasn't fast up and down the court, but he was very quick.
I think what he meant was that's what people said about Larry even back in the day.
I saw Larry run a 5 mile road race in 1984 or 85, cant' remember which. It started and finished on the street that intersects with Causeway. He hung out for pictures afterwards. The Hick from French Lick might not have been the best player ever, but, for my money, he was the most entertaining.
coach wrote:
if Wilt, Jerry West, and Elgin Baylor are considered 3 of the top 10 players of all time how come they couldn't win a championship together?
Not enough basketballs for all three at one time?
It was 1988 and he ran 34:30.
Wrong again, it was 1984...not that anyone gives a $hit.
WC did not join JW and EB until the 68/69 season. At that point he was 7 years past his most productive season, as was EB.
It's like the situation when Karl Malone and Gary Payton were on the same team as Shaq and Kobe. Not as extreme, but the same basic situation - these guys were well past their prime before they got together.
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Yeah, I myself, was thinking about the Houston team with Olajuwon, Barkley & Pippen. The name recognition was good----but they weren't THOSE guys anymore.
I think the curiosity with Larry Bird for me is due in large part because the winning came from nowhere (they were 32-50 & 29-53 the 2 previous years), he was the only change to the starting lineup when the winning began immediately with him, the winning was constant, the winning was in great quantity and at the highest levels----and there are numerous examples of the team NOT doing well when Bird wan't playing.
I wish there was some metric that could extract a player from a unit to see his impact. Win Shares tries to---but it's so flawed. It tells us what a guy did---but doesn't tell us what the TEAM would do if he wasn't there.
There are some periods in Bird's career that suggest highly that we connect the dots regarding Bird's indispensibility and have changed my way of looking at Bird's teams as they have gone (for me) from 'look at all the great teams Bird was on' to 'look at all the teams Bird made great by being on them'.
LeBron James is well on his way to being the best player of all-time. I think Jordan is the best (most efficient) scorer ever but LeBron is quite close, and maybe second. LeBron is bigger and a lot stronger but almost as agile. He is a better defender and rebounder, and at least as good at passing. He has a good shot at being the career leader in Hollinger PER (which doesn't even consider most aspects of defense). This year, he has a reasonable chance of setting the single-season PER record.
And, if you want to adjust for era, LeBron's case will be very hard to argue against, indeed. A couple decades later, with bigger talent pools and modern training principles, the competition can only be stronger than in MJ's heyday.
People always bring up rings but it is beyond ignorant to disqualify LeBron based on bad luck, much inferior teammates, and whatever else. With an almost infinite amount of variables going into who wins a championship, it is stupid beyond belief to shove that all aside and try to judge two players based on number of rings. Besides, MJ didn't win his first ring until he was 27 (LeBron is 27 this year).
After he retires, assuming the most likely outcome, and that justice is served, LeBron James will be recognized as the best basketball player ever.
Lebron isn't a better defender than Jordan. Jordan was the best defensive guard of all-time.
LeBron is certainly a more versatile defender. He shut down Derrick Rose, in the Conference Finals last year (Rose shot 1-15 while LeBron was guarding him). LeBron shut down Pau Gasol earlier this year and is commended by coaches and analysts throughout the league as an amazing defensive weapon, who can legitimately guard 1-4 and even a lot of 5s in the league. LeBron uniquely combines elite strength with elite agility and excellent coordination. It would be foolish for me to claim confidence that LeBron is a better wing defender than Jordan was. That is still my opinion and he is clearly more versatile, plus is better at all non-scoring aspects of offense by my estimations.
The most meaningful stat is games won. I know that no one can win all by himself, but there are certain players who make everybody around them better AND they have their focus on winning the game.
Much of game dynamic does not appear in the stats.
When a player takes control of the game, as he dictates the game that includes what happens and what doesn't happen. On defense, for example, some guys put up shot blocking numbers, other guys somehow disrupt an offensive player's style of play to the point that they become a non-factor. Again, no stat reveals that.
The most meaningful stat is games won. I know that no one can win all by himself, but there are certain players who make everybody around them better AND they have their focus on winning the game.
Much of game dynamic does not appear in the stats.
When a player takes control of the game, as he dictates the game that includes what happens and what doesn't happen. On defense, for example, some guys put up shot blocking numbers, other guys somehow disrupt an offensive player's style of play to the point that they become a non-factor. Again, no stat reveals that.
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There is A LOT that even our most advanced metrics are NOT 'picking up' and measuring properly. This is true.
What stat shows how utterly lost LeBron James appeared to be in the 4th Quarter during the Finals last year? There isn't one, won't ever be one---but we all know we need one if we're going to judge everthing on advanced metrics. Larry Bird LOVES LBJ... thinks he's the best player in the NBA & believes he could someday be the best to EVER play----but Bird candidly said he 'doesn't know what his deal was' in the Finals' 4th Quarters last year (when asked in an interview with Magic about the Broadway play about them).
If you're going to be the GOAT, you can't be indecisive, ineffective and passive with the Championship on the line.
Another thing regarding the 'greatest ever' potential for any of the current players: everyone has to come to grips with the fact that, despite all of the pontificating regarding the athletic supremacy of the players today---that the NBA has dumbed-down the rules for ball handling, making it markedly easier to dribble drive, get to the rim and set yourself for a shot.
I honestly have no idea what LeBron James would do if he could not take gallop-steps (and typically 3 of them) through followed by a stop and hop step as he maneuvered through the lane BEFORE shooting the ball.
You used to have to catch a ball and keep a pivot foot locked to the floor without dragging it or begin your dribble before moving both feet. Now you can catch a ball and HOP... then start you dribble and take your shot.
I remember back in the 90s, they moved the 3pt line in to HELP players shoot 3s. What happened was suddenly EVERYONE thought they were 3pt shooters-----and the league became a zoo of clearouts and 3pt FGAs... and the art of the mid range jumper became lost. MJ became a pretty good 3pt shooter, but Stern realized it was ruining the league overall----so the line was moved back after (I think) 2 years (maybe 1?).
They have tried a lot of things since the 80s to artificially enhance offensive play.
Kinda funny how the athletes are superior---but the rules governing ball handling now have to be restructured to help them. It really clouds how good these players are relative to ones in other Eras.
L. Cwajit wrote:
LeBron is certainly a more versatile defender. He shut down Derrick Rose, in the Conference Finals last year (Rose shot 1-15 while LeBron was guarding him). LeBron shut down Pau Gasol earlier this year and is commended by coaches and analysts throughout the league as an amazing defensive weapon, who can legitimately guard 1-4 and even a lot of 5s in the league. LeBron uniquely combines elite strength with elite agility and excellent coordination. It would be foolish for me to claim confidence that LeBron is a better wing defender than Jordan was. That is still my opinion and he is clearly more versatile, plus is better at all non-scoring aspects of offense by my estimations.
You will get a ton of debate on claiming LeBron as a better defender than Jordan.
But what really makes it clear for me and many others is this:
When it comes to crunch time, it appears that to directly challenge LeBron is the way to win.
When it came to crunch time, directly challenging MJ was the way to make sure you lost.
This^^^^. Of all the players I have ever seen, I would trust Michael Jordan to get the game winning score and/or get the game winning defensive stop above any other player, including Larry Bird.
Jordan fan wrote:
This^^^^. Of all the players I have ever seen, I would trust Michael Jordan to get the game winning score and/or get the game winning defensive stop above any other player, including Larry Bird.
I agree that Jordan, because of his quickness, would be the best choice as far as final shot in a game - he was almost unstoppable in terms of getting a good shot off because of his ability to fake and either drive to the hoop or elevate and shoot over the defender faster than any defender could react.
I think that Jordan's explosiveness caused the NBA to re-write the unofficial rule book, allowing some of the extra foot movement that we see today in games. Personally, I think that this has detracted from the game.
There was a brief period in track when a few sprinters were developing the knack of rolling a bit forward just prior to the gun, which sped times up. Officials however stuck to the rules of the sport and the rolling led to dq's. I wish the NBA had stuck to the rules of the sport, but Jordan was so exceptionally exciting I think that they thought it was time to liberalize the ball handling/footwork restrictions.
I'm sure others know much more about this than I.
Yeah, the "Jordan Rules". I've heard this before. And he did get away with more infractions than many other players. And so does basically every other prominent nba player ever. If you think that this defined Jordan's greatness you are misguided at best. I've seen far too many games with Jordan. From the beginning of his career to the end (meaning end of Bulls career), Jordan was the best in clutch offense and defense. Ask Larry, "Bird Fan", and he will tell you exactly who the best was.
Jordan fan wrote:
Yeah, the "Jordan Rules". I've heard this before. And he did get away with more infractions than many other players. And so does basically every other prominent nba player ever. If you think that this defined Jordan's greatness you are misguided at best. I've seen far too many games with Jordan. From the beginning of his career to the end (meaning end of Bulls career), Jordan was the best in clutch offense and defense. Ask Larry, "Bird Fan", and he will tell you exactly who the best was.
Yep. I think some people confuse the style of play, or the personalities, or some other factor, in choosing Bird over Jordan. This is not about any of that. It's simply who was the greatest. I don't think there's even a discussion here. Jordan.