Dirk Nowitzki
Dirk Nowitzki
Insane Idiot wrote:
No he is not. He is possibly in the top ten.
That is a ridiculous post.
The answer to the OP is YES, Larry Bird is the greatest player to ever play in the NBA. Not even close.
A great player, but definitely not the GOAT; I am not sure if was even the GOAT at his position. re:" played excellent defense", he was an ok to good defender, not excellent. The GOAT discussion would involve one of these guys, Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Robinson, Magic. Jabbar. Bird is probably somewhere in later part of the top-10.
When Shaq was a rookie I thought he was going to be in that category. Years later when I went to the All-Star Game in Cleveland in 1997 and he was one of the introduced 50 greatest all time players, I thought different. He won the titles with Kobe. Does Shaq even belong in the top 10? Probably.
Sports Analyst wrote:
Barret Dahl aka Crip Nation wrote:The speed of the game is so much faster now than Bird in his prime wouldn't even make it on a college team nowadays.
It is much more physical game now and Bird would be a boy among men.
Folks, this guy gets it. It's more or less the same in the NFL.
Frank Gifford who was once a RB/WR and considered a great, speedy athlete had an all-time best 40 yard dash time of 5.17 which would be slow even for a 350 pound lineman today. For whatever reason, the 2012 athlete is physically superior to the athlete in prior decades.
(old thread, I know, and furthermore this guy I am replying to is, hopefully, a troll, but I'll bite anyway)
WRONG. DEAD, DEAD WRONG. Sure maybe the on the average what you are saying is true, but not as far as the cream of the crop (which Bird was). How many 19 y.o.'s in the world today are better middle distance runners than Jim Ryun was at that age? ZERO.
How many runners PERIOD have beaten Seb Coe's 1:41.73 set 30 years ago during Bird's early years (answer: 2).
How many LJ'rs are better than Carl Lewis was during the way back '80's? (again, Bird era) NONE.
How many boxers today are better athletes or quicker than Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard? ZERO.
How many athletes today are better all around athletes than Bo Jackson, Herschel Walker, or Deion Sanders (all part of the '80's era that Bird was in)? Few at best, maybe none.
One could go on and on like this. Furthermore, even a severely physically limited Bird, like he was in his last few years due to injuries, could be a star in today's league. (Lebron is 10x the athlete Bird was, but Bird never came close to the level of choking the James exhibited last year. The mind matters a lot too).
Having said all that, Bird's career was still not better than Jordan's, and you can't really rate him above Russell or Wilt or even Magic. But he is a top 10 all timer for sure.
What about when Jordan dropped 63 POINTS on the Celtics in only his 2nd year of playing in the NBA. He almost single handily beat the Celtics on their own court. And this was when the Celtics were the best team in the NBA. Walton, Bird, Mchale, none of those guys could've stopped him that night. Hell, Bird had FOUR hall of famers on his team. How many did a young MJ have? I'll wait.....
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The thing with Bird's HOFers (McHale, Parish, DJ) is that when Bird wasn't there---they didn't win a lot. Without Bird in 1988-89 (played 6 games hurt bad, then missed the last 76 after opting for surgery on both heels)----Boston WITH McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge & Reggie Lewis went 24-28 before trading for frontcourt help. How were the 1994 Bulls without Jordan? They won 55 games. They actually won at a BETTER clip as long as Pippen was in there (51-21) thn with Jordan the year before.
Frank Gifford who was once a RB/WR and considered a great, speedy athlete had an all-time best 40 yard dash time of 5.17 which would be slow even for a 350 pound lineman today. For whatever reason, the 2012 athlete is physically superior to the athlete in prior decades.
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Using Frank Gifford, who played in the NFL primarily in the 1950s as an example why Larry Bird couldn't 'make it' in today's NBA is absurd. When Gifford was a rookie in 1952, Ed McCauley was the NBA's top scoring forward and in Gifford's last season in 1964---the NBA's top scoring forward was Bob Pettit. Was Larry Bird even in kindergarten when Frank Gifford was still relative?
From 1985-86 thru 1991-92, here are Bird's games played, ppg, rpg, apg & FG% against all of the ALL-DEFENSIVE 1st & 2nd Team Forwards. You may recognize a few names from a particular Bulls' team that I think most folks would agree would represent just fine in today's NBA defensively:
Paul Pressey 20g 23ppg/ 8rpg/ 5apg .487
Michael Cooper 8g 24ppg/ 10rpg/ 6apg .487
Bill Hanzlik 6g 22ppg/ 14rpg/ 7apg .510
Rodney McCray 11g 27ppg/ 9rpg/ 9apg .500
Karl Malone 11g 28ppg/ 8rpg/ 6apg .485
Buck Williams 23g 28ppg/ 9rpg/ 6apg .480
Larry Nance 12g 26ppg/ 8rpg/ 8apg .536
Dennis Rodman 15g 25ppg/ 8rpg/ 7apg .487
AC Green 10g 22ppg/ 10rpg/ 7apg .464
Rick Mahorn 22g 26ppg/ 9rpg/ 7apg .511
Scottie Pippen 14g 26ppg/ 8rpg/ 6apg .503
Horace Grant 15g 25ppg/ 8rpg/ 6apg .495
Charles Oakley 23g 28ppg/ 9rpg/ 6apg .509
Bird lit the best defensive forwards up. Keep in mind from 1988-89 thru 1991-92, Bird wasn't even the same player with the injuries. This sample doesn't include 1979-81 thru 1984-85, when he won 2 of his MVPs and had 3 other 2nd place finishes for MVP.
I cant figure why you all dont consider Hakeem to be in the top 5 players all time. Look at his stats, they are ridiculous! He was playing against some of the greatest center of this generation also. Shaq, Ewing etc.
Remember he was as big as Wilt, he would have dominated back then also. He was virtually unstoppable offensively in his prime. He may be the best defensive center ever- note defensive stats below
ALL TIME RANKS
scoring = 9th
rebounds = 11th
block = 1st
steals = 8th!
BTW- If I had to construct an all time team, Bird would be there no doubt. Besides his numbers, he also brought intangibles
C- Hakeem
PF- Duncan
SF- Bird
SG- Jordan (best ever)
PG- Magic
89-90 HOU 82 82 38.1 .501 .167 .713 3.60 10.40 14.00 2.9 2.12 4.59 3.85 3.80 24.3
89-90 NBA season
24.3 ppg
4.6 blks ppg
14. rebnds pg
2.12 stls pg
no one has had years like Hakeem
Here's an interesting factoid: Larry Bird is still the only player in NBA history who is Top 10 All-Time in Post-Season points, rebounds, assists and steals.
Nighthawk wrote:
Here's an interesting factoid: Larry Bird is still the only player in NBA history who is Top 10 All-Time in Post-Season points, rebounds, assists and steals.
Bird and Johnson are co-GOAT in my opinion.
I'd give a slight edge to Magic over Bird - count the rings. MJ obviously tops. Wilt, Russell and Big O have claims also to the very top.
I really don't see how Shaq can in any way be considered even the best center - he's behind Russell, Wilt, Kareem and Hakeem - maybe even Mikan, ha ha. He can't be the best if they have to take him out close games because the other team will just foul him and he'll miss at least one of the free throws.
Until LeBron wins something he's not in the top 10, probably not even top 15 or 20. As much as I hate to say it, Kobe really does have to be counted up there now - certainly top 10. He wouldn't be on your starting 5 though.
I assume this is a joke; please tell me at you are joking.
Bird never claimed to be the best player in the game. He cites Jordan, Chamberlain, Johnson, etc..
Ability is never static. There were certain days/games when perhaps Bird played as well or better than anyone else. But there were other days when he had his problems, too.
An interesting facet with Bird is, though, he could play with a variety of handicaps (bad back, bad Achilles) and still come up with great play. His most distinguishing skill in my mind was his ability to see and play the whole court and adjust his play so that the team could win the game. That sort of thing doesn't show up in personal stats.
fwiw wrote:
As much as I hate to say it, Kobe really does have to be counted up there now - certainly top 10. He wouldn't be on your starting 5 though.
Kobe? Kobe? Are you serious? Sorry, but if you are an all time top 10 and you have the second best center in the league as well as the best power forward in the league on your team you should pretty much never lose a game.
Kobe? Look at his stats, man. Note his percentages. He scores a lot because he is a chucker. He misses more game winning shots than he makes. He does not make the players around him better...
You want to talk about rings? He was definitely not the best player on his own team for his first three rings. At best he was The Man for two titles. That's pretty good. But it sure doesn't make a case to be considered an all timer.
Kobe? Come on!
Steve Martin wrote:
Bird and Johnson are co-GOAT in my opinion.
Bird and Johnson would both tell you that Jordan was clearly better than they themselves were - as would anybody who played during the Jordan era.
Well there is always this wrote:
Steve Martin wrote:Bird and Johnson are co-GOAT in my opinion.
Bird and Johnson would both tell you that Jordan was clearly better than they themselves were - as would anybody who played during the Jordan era.
I think it's fair to say that those three plus Wilt are the four best of all time. Picking any one of those four is reasonable. For anyone else, ask yourself if they are better than the one among those four that plays their position (calling Wilt PF/C). I'd have a hard time with anyone except Oscar R or Hakeem.
For those touting steals and blocks, remember they weren't calculated until the early 70's or so. If you think Wilt and Russell wouldn't dominate blocks career wise you're crazy.
Jordan #1
Bird and Magic #2
Gets a little cluttered up based on opinions after that.
If you include overall career, you would be hard pressed to put a better highlight film together than Pistol Pete.
mellon wrote:
Jordan #1
Bird and Magic #2
Gets a little cluttered up based on opinions after that.
If you include overall career, you would be hard pressed to put a better highlight film together than Pistol Pete.
Ha, ha. Unless you want defensive highlights. I'd put Dominique in there for highlights too. Fun to watch.