High School Coaches, How Do You Get Your Kids To Tempo Run Dual Meets Without Being Embarrassed?

slippery peter, yo team ain't good enuf to be putsin around in all they meets. when i wuz in high skool we treated the dualies like tempos or just didnt run them but thats just cuz we were boss and cleaned up in our conference. of course u should try to win meets. but if we ran 'gainst a good team we tried. stupidhead

Yeah I had an opposing coach get mad at me this year. Normally a guy I talk to and would have considered a "coaching friend" but he didn't like that my top runner didn't run hard in the XC Jamborees, (she still one over his girl by 25 seconds who got 3rd, my team went 1-2). Not sure what else you want me to do. I'm getting a couple studs next year and didn't lose anyone so we'll see how pumped he is next year. We'll either take it easy and win with around 25 points or if I let the run hard we'll score 15.

@Graeme McDowell I agree that there are people who take this too far. There should be enough races that the kids are mentally prepared for their key meets, but not so many that they are burnt out by February when they still have an entire outdoor track season to go. In a perfect world, I would say about 5-6 all-out efforts per season is appropriate. We probably do about twice that.

@Central State Runner The other thing that complicates it is that, in our league, the two mile and mile rotate each week. So one week just the girls will run the two mile, and the next week just the boys. It's pretty annoying. I like the idea of doing a workout within the 2 mile, i.e. running a lap at 2 mile pace, then jog a lap. I'd like to try that out, the head coach would likely blow a gasket if he saw that though.

Another thing for you to consider is that racing requires SKILL. The fittest guys don't always win, especially among the best runners out there. You could use dual meet races to develop racing skills - how to lead, how to follow, how to go out hard and feel what it's like to have to hang on, or have them hang back and see how fast they can crank the last 600 of a 1600 or 3200. Develop these skills in the less important races and you won't have to take your hard knocks in the big ones.

And always have distance kids run the 4x4. They have to experience fast running when tired. Load up one team for the purpose of scoring points and try to make the rest of the teams as evenly matched as you can. A lot of distance coaches make all their guys into straight-up 16/32 guys and neglect the speed that's necessary to make a really good miler.

Long term development is a huge canard. At least 75% of your athletes will be out of the sport within two years, and 95% will be out within five.

Here's a bit of a "stupid question"—Why not just hold out some of the kids? Have the JV guys race the dual meets, then have the varsity guys race the invitationals?

T-Man, that's a good point about trying different strategies, i.e. someone who usually goes out fast tries to negative split their race.

I'm actually not crazy about distance runners doing the 4x400 in winter track, but I'm willing to admit I may be wrong on that. My problem is that the 4x400 is always the last event. Everyone just wants to get the hell out there, so the kids who run the 4x400 end up rushing out of there and not properly stretching and cooling down.

@Just a small thought

A very good point, and that's why, for a kid who's not a serious track runner I have no qualms about racing them hard in every dual meet and invitational. I'm more thinking of my kids who are just starting their running career and have potential to be good college runners.

Also, when I speak of long term development I'm talking about in-season development as well. For instance, our top athlete is a female miler who is looking to qualify for New Balance Outdoor Nationals in the spring. I don't coach her for cross country, and she ran about 10-11 5k's in the fall, most of them all-out. If I have her do the same thing this winter, then her chances of really peaking and qualifying for Nationals will be greatly diminished.

@asdfasfads

If I was the head coach, that's exactly what I would do. I am the distance coach, so I don't have complete control over what races they run. And trying to convince the guy I coach with to let a kid tempo run a race is always an argument. It's very frustrating.

I'm surprised Malmo has not responded to this thread yet.

I personally look at any race as a race, no matter if it's a dual, invitational, or championship. Kids need to learn to win under various circumstances, and hone their racing skills. Someone above mentioned a similar mindset. If the kids are superior to those they are racing in a given dual meet, instruct them not to lead, and race the last 600 or x distance to win the race. How is this different than the "race a lap, jog a lap" advice, excepting that it is more realistic to how championship races may be run.

If you have no control over which athletes race (regarding moving JV or second tier varsity into a given race, and minimizing all out efforts early for potential championship contenders), how many races your athletes must run, and how your athletes race tactically, then maybe you need to send out your resume to another coach or school that is more similar to your coaching philosophy.

Finally, although I get the gist of your original comment, how do you "tempo" an 800 or 1600? I will give you the 3200, but these races are too short to "tempo," so I assume you mean run sub-maximal efforts. I see no benefit to running an 8 or 16 sub-maximally, given the time interval between events. Maybe if you are truly stuck in your predicament, you can be more creative and change your training plan, instead of playing into the hands of the head coach, parents, and athletes, who blame you for the kids not running the race to win, and sticking to your workout day as set in stone under current plan.

That's great that you look at every race as a race, am I correct in assuming that you are not doing 40 races a year all-out though?

The second point is not really relevant, as I'm looking for advice as to my current situation now, not in the future. As I mentioned I'm in my second year coaching at this school, and I really like the kids on the team.

When I say "tempo" a mile, I do just mean run it at a sub-maximal effort. And I agree, it does suck and is fairly pointless. But it makes a lot more sense than just doing every race all-out and seeing what happens at the end of the year after 9 months of hard running.

I'd like to hear from someone in the "race every race" crowd as to how you would approach a situation where a kid has 10 plus cross country meets, 12-15 indoor meets, and 12-15 outdoor meets. Do you guys honestly believe a high school kid should be running that many all-out efforts?

I coached a 1:50/4:10 guy last year. We have a rule that you must participate in dual meets to be eligible for post season championship meets.

We did two things: Run the 400/200 for all-out speed.

Do a workout before, run the 4 x 400 to test the legs when tired.

You can be smart about it, a two miler doesn't need to run the two mile every week.

Our dual meets are just for JV kids. Our Varsity kids race in invitationals.

Also, I'll add this.

I don't care about winning any meets during the season until we get to Conference, District, Sectional and State. Last year in cross country, we won 5 meets (four of which were the above). Last year in track, we won 5 meets (four of which were the above). Who cares what you do in the other meets. Plan your season so that it counts.

I'm not really responding to the first three paragraphs as my views on those ideas are posted above, but more so the fourth paragraph. While you can't really tempo an 800m or mile, you can change up the style of running it. For instance, I was a 1:54 guy for the 800m in high school, and rather than running it as a usual positive split (56 to 58), my goal would be to run a slow first lap and work on running the second lap hard (63 to 59). This way I could run with 3-4 teammates and we could work together in the dual meet. Or in the 1600m, work on doing an extended kick from 600m out and getting a good idea for what that effort should feel like. Like I said before, these just helped to get rid of the rust for the larger invites. I do think that there is a huge mental aspect to racing, and while, of course, everyone needs racing experience, you can become desensitized if over-raced in a season.

"it really hurts long-term development for distance runners"

Win the holy hell do you think you are developing them for??

Seriously ask yourself this question!

Dude this is IT for almost all of your runners. They are there to run in HS. IF and only IF you have some highly touted Footlocker Finalist type athlete should you be worrying about stuff like "long term development".

"Long term" in this case should be your Regional or State meet.

You ain't Alberto S. training guys for the Olympic Games, get over yourself.

@ataglance

Why on earth are you so angry? I'm developing them to run well at the end of the season (which is the Regional and State meets) and in the spring, to answer your question. I do have one girl who has potential to be a legitimate Division I scholarship runner, so I'd like to see her run her best time in late-May to qualify for New Balance Outdoor Nationals, not at dual meet #7.

Seriously, why the anger? I think this discussion thread has been pretty civil by LetsRun standards, why not keep it that way?

I think he kind of means that. Why burn your kids up in duel meets early in the year or indoors when the most important meets of the season are at the end regionals, state meet, possibly national meets etc...

@Central State Runner Thank you for being the voice of reason here. I agree with what people have said about trying different strategies within races and I'm going to actually implement that at our dual meet tomorrow. That way the kids are a bit more engaged in their races.